3 Day Expectations?

[KSanford33]

Hey Everyone,
I signed up for my three-day at Watkins Glen later this month. I grew up about 20 minutes from there, so I know the area and the track, but I was wondering if I could get some advice on what to expect from the three-day? I've read Mr. Lopez's book as well as 5 of the 'Speed Secrets' books so I understand most of the concepts, now I'm just hoping to put them into practice. Also, are spectators allowed to watch the school? Thanks guys, I'm excited already!


-Ken Sanford

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by KSanford33

Hey Everyone,
I signed up for my three-day at Watkins Glen later this month. I grew up about 20 minutes from there, so I know the area and the track, but I was wondering if I could get some advice on what to expect from the three-day? I've read Mr. Lopez's book as well as 5 of the 'Speed Secrets' books so I understand most of the concepts, now I'm just hoping to put them into practice. Also, are spectators allowed to watch the school? Thanks guys, I'm excited already!


-Ken Sanford

Ken, above all, relax and have fun. Follow the istructions of the instructors. Be smooth. The main thing you will take away from the 3-day is whether you like to go fast, or not. Some folks find racing skills are not what they thought they would be. I went with two other good friends, one of whom has been virtually a lifelong Porsche owner and bugged me for years to go do a racing school - only "real race cars, not street cars" - then once he got strapped in, was completely disarmed. Didn't like the speed thing at all. Go figure.

Friends and family have always been welcomed at the schools I have attended (3-day at VIR, 2-day adv at Laguna Seca twice)

[GEORGE]

You are going to the best driving school at THE BEST TRACK in the USA.... Did my 3 day there too.
Just soak it all in...the instructors are first rate and they won't let you do something beyond the cars; or your; ability. You will get faster at a progressive rate.
Don't forget to enjoy the other people taking the class with you. They are 75% of the fun. They ALL have different reasons for attending and they all have different ambitions after the school. The best ones to watch are the very cocky first day guys(sorry ladies but it is usually the guys who are cocky). They usually act as if they know it all, and usually the quiet ones soak it all in and end up running quicker at the end. And be sure to look at the cars the students show up in; always some heavy metal out there.
The best learning experience was the parking lot cone field. You will learn more about the cars limits at these very slow speeds without the heavy penalty out on the real fast track. The first day is the big building block for everything to come.

Enjoy!!!! Enjoy!! I am jealous just thinking about it

[KSanford33]

Is much of it focused on driving at the limit? I honestly don't think liking or disliking the speed will be a problem, but I'm very interested in how to control a car at the limit. Thank you for the answers so far guys.


-KS

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by KSanford33

Is much of it focused on driving at the limit? I honestly don't think liking or disliking the speed will be a problem, but I'm very interested in how to control a car at the limit. Thank you for the answers so far guys.-KS

I think you will find that "the limit", like rich, old and "the last house", will be a moving target. Besides, racing is 90% mental.

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by KSanford33

Is much of it focused on driving at the limit? I honestly don't think liking or disliking the speed will be a problem, but I'm very interested in how to control a car at the limit. Thank you for the answers so far guys.
-KS

Based on your initial post, I gather that, like me, you are new to this game of true high-performance driving (rather than the posing that passes for it on our public roads). If I'm in error, than this is redundant for you and I apologize in advance.

My experience with trying to learn to "drive at the limit" is that, it's not really a "limit" at all, it's a doorway to a totally distinct way of driving a car that allows you to go faster than you ever thought possible. The difference between how the car behaves in this "new world" is as different as Newtonian and Einsteinian physics. Strange things start happening. You start steering the car with the pedals. The steering wheel is pointed away from the corner much more than it is into it. The brakes are used only incidentally for slowing the car down. The scarier things get, the more you need to be on the gas. Time expands, and the slower it feels, the faster you go.

Yes, to enter this world (and I have only gotten fleeting glimpses into it), the first step is to be able to "control the car," so you are right on there. And preparing to control the car at the limit of adhesion of the tires requires learning some very specific ways of applying the inputs: brakes, throttle, steering, gears, and eyes. Now that I can look back, I realize that is what they tried to teach me in my 3-day. Unfortunately, it took me the better part of a year to get it. Try your best to be patient and learn good habits from the start, as mechanical as it may begin to seem compared to passing, outbraking, competing. And it will continue to seem mechanical and uninteresting until that first day when you summon the courage to soften the brake more quickly than before, wheel into a corner at speed with the suspension loaded just right with just the right amount of tire noise, you bleed delicately off the brake just right, touch the gas, countersteer, squeeze on full gas despite coming nerve-wrackingly close to understeering off the exit, eyes down the road the whole time, upshift before you straighten, use every inch of exit rumble strip, kick up a small plume of dust, and then crank up through the rest of the gears as you realize that you didn't go off and went faster through that corner than ever before in your life.

Then you will be hooked.

You may find this thread helpful:
http://www.teamjuicyracing.com/forum...ead.php?t=2386

[KSanford33]

Slowhands,
Wow... I was excited to attend this before, but if it lives up to half of the transformational experience you descibe it to be, I'm in for a heck of an experience. That was an impressive piece of writing. Right now learning car control is very important to me; I figure it'll be my best way to steepen the learning curve as much as possible. Thank you again for that description; it was very fun to read.


-KS

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by KSanford33

Right now learning car control is very important to me; I figure it'll be my best way to steepen the learning curve as much as possible. -KS

Thank you for your kind words. You are on target with your approach. The faster and scarier things start to get, the more important car control becomes, because, to quote Jim Pace, the car starts "sliding like a winter storm." Learn it properly now and it will definitely steepen that learning curve.

You are going to have a blast in your 3 day. And then you will become a helpless addict like the rest of us. So either get out now while you still can, or buckle in and hang on. Because the rest of life will start seeming REALLY BORING by comparison. Don't say we didn't warn you. Or your bank account.

[KSanford33]

Hey Guys,
Thanks again for all of the input. One last thing: Will I need/want a seat poured for my three-day school? Keep in mind I'm going to do a handful of car control clinics and a couple of lead-follows before I go to my first Skippy race.


-KS

[Tireman]

By all means, yes, get a seat insert poured. There's really no substitute for one....pads/cushions etc just don't work as well. You won't regret getting one.

Viz

[cdh]

Originally Posted by Tireman

By all means, yes, get a seat insert poured. There's really no substitute for one....pads/cushions etc just don't work as well. You won't regret getting one.

Viz

ditto, makes a HUGE difference, good luck!

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by cdh

ditto, makes a HUGE difference, good luck!

I don't know. Is the seat location/configuration the same in the school cars as the RT's? I know the RT sequential shifter seems to be further back than the school car H-pattern shifter. My first time in the RT's (2 day adv) I literally beat my right elbow black and blue banging it into the chassis tube or edge of the seat behind the shifter. To compensate, I sit differently in the RT, leaning to the left, to get as much elbow room as possible. I have to grip the shift ball by the top, like you would palm a basketball, to the gain enough elbow room between it and the side of the seat. I never had this problem with the 4-speed school cars, only the RT's and it's been the same in all of them. My RT seat insert looks like I have some sort of abnormal curvature of the spine, I'm scrunched over the left so far. I'm 6'-2". If you're much shorter it may not matter to you. I'm sure you'd hate to spend $100 on an insert cast to the school car configuration, then find it was not suitable for the next rung up the ladder.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by Rosso

I don't know. Is the seat location/configuration the same in the school cars as the RT's? .....I literally beat my right elbow black and blue banging it into the chassis tube or edge of the seat behind the shifter. To compensate, I sit differently in the RT.....

hmmm, very good question. Rob, Bobo, Stevie, anyone have that answer?

Rosso - the obvious question is do you use elbow pads? I would not be able to race (and still use my arms afterward) without them.

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by cdh

hmmm, very good question. Rob, Bobo, Stevie, anyone have that answer?

Rosso - the obvious question is do you use elbow pads? I would not be able to race (and still use my arms afterward) without them.

Oh yeah, for sure now, but the first time out in the RT I didn't know I'd need them. I think the shifter may be farther forward in the school cars.

[Slowhands]

I don't know your size, but unless you're really skinny and narrow and will be sliding around in the car, I don't think it's necessary for the 3-day school or car control. You're working on learning the necessary inputs and developing mental algorithms more than anything else, and you really shouldn't be focused on speed, which is where I find my seat makes the most difference. Definitely get it made before your lead-follows though.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by Rosso

Oh yeah, for sure now, but the first time out in the RT I didn't know I'd need them. I think the shifter may be farther forward in the school cars.

Copy that R

Dario used some creative armor

[rbuetzer]

Originally Posted by Rosso

Oh yeah, for sure now, but the first time out in the RT I didn't know I'd need them. I think the shifter may be farther forward in the school cars.

Sorry to be repetitive and off topic to the thread.... but do most people use elbow pads? This would be good info before my first race in December.

-Ryan

[dalyduo]

I became aware of the need for them by the end of my 3 day and quickly observed that many regular Skippy racers use them. My elbows were beat black and blue from hitting the frame tubes on both sides of the car but I don't have much meat on my bones.

I believe most use them or at least have them because some tracks are rougher than others in that regard. They're easy to come by at most sporting goods stores and you certainly don't need the hard shin guards shown in CDH's funny picture here.

After my first big crash into the downhill tire wall at LRP I started wearing knee pads as well. The only part of you that is not strapped down in the car is your legs and in a heavy impact your knees can hit the steering column and frame tubes much harder than you'd think. The most serious pain from that crash (other than signing the crash damage check) was hobbling around for a couple of weeks with very sore legs and knees. I've worn the knee pads ever since and they saved my bacon last year at Tremblant when I pancaked hard into the concrete wall at turn 11. Had a painless golfball sized bruise through the heavily padded kneepad that would have probably been disabeling without them. They look like hell but they sure are cheap insurance.

Originally Posted by rbuetzer

Sorry to be repetitive and off topic to the thread.... but do most people use elbow pads? This would be good info before my first race in December.

-Ryan

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by rbuetzer

Sorry to be repetitive and off topic to the thread.... but do most people use elbow pads? This would be good info before my first race in December.

-Ryan

Lots do. I started out with a hard shell pad on the right arm only, but found it was so thick it made the shifter harder to reach as it pushed my arm forward. I use a Hatch gel pad on both elbows now. I think they came from a police supply type website. I have knee pads, but usually don't use them.

[donv]

Originally Posted by Rosso

I use a Hatch gel pad on both elbows now. I think they came from a police supply type website.

Elbow/arm bruising has been a major issue for me, in fact i have been a bloody mess on many occasions in the past. I have a clotting/bruising issue so I have tried numerous types of elbow pads but so far have not found the perfect combination of protection vs bulk. You mention "Hatch gel pads" which I'm not familiar with...i would be very grateful for any additional info on what these are, they may just be the answer to my problem.

thanks

donv

[rslonaker]

Originally Posted by cdh

hmmm, very good question. Rob, Bobo, Stevie, anyone have that answer?

Rosso - the obvious question is do you use elbow pads? I would not be able to race (and still use my arms afterward) without them.

The seat position is the same school car vs. race car. I am not aware of a difference in shifter location between the two. I believe they are the same.

As far as bruising elbows, instead of using pads, why not lighten your shifter effort. I use my wrist and fingertips to make the shift, never my whole arm. I also drive with my elbows tucked in next to my ribs. If you spend a few sessions focusing on only using as much effort as is needed to shift, you will find your shifting improves and you don't beat yourself up as much.

[donv]

Originally Posted by rslonaker

As far as bruising elbows, instead of using pads, why not lighten your shifter effort. I use my wrist and fingertips to make the shift, never my whole arm. I also drive with my elbows tucked in next to my ribs. If you spend a few sessions focusing on only using as much effort as is needed to shift, you will find your shifting improves and you don't beat yourself up as much.

In my case it's not the shifting, my left elbow seems to bruise the most and based on in car DVD I am using the wrist and fingers. It seems my arms sit right against the body panels, and just moving the wheel causes rubbing, slower, smoother steering may help. I will try keeping the elbows in but Rob most of us have a little more waist and chest than you so those elbows are out there)

[robbyracenut]

I actually also found that having a seat insert made life much easier on my elbows... Was sliding around in the seat a lot and having to use my elbows on the frame to brace myself in without the insert, but I haven't had a single issue since I got it moulded. I think the key in any of this is to find a time when you can really sit down and find the perfect seating position in the car. I found that even after I had found something that worked decently well the first day, by taking 20 minutes or so with my carmate and fiddling with the seat setting I found a position that made everything (shifting, steering, leg positioning) easier. Then I got my seat made, not before.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by rslonaker

The seat position is the same school car vs. race car. I am not aware of a difference in shifter location between the two. I believe they are the same.

As far as bruising elbows, instead of using pads, why not lighten your shifter effort. I use my wrist and fingertips to make the shift, never my whole arm. I also drive with my elbows tucked in next to my ribs. If you spend a few sessions focusing on only using as much effort as is needed to shift, you will find your shifting improves and you don't beat yourself up as much.

Thanks Rob. I get elbow banging not from shifting (yes, wrist flick is all that's needed) but because the way I fit in the car with my liner, it just works out that way. Not sure I could tuck elbows in, my liner would make that difficult but will try it next time in the car.

I got some pads thru Driving Impressions website, they are small, unobtrusive and effective. A local sporting goods store will supply what you need also.

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by cdh

Thanks Rob. I get elbow banging not from shifting (yes, wrist flick is all that's needed) but because the way I fit in the car with my liner, it just works out that way. Not sure I could tuck elbows in, my liner would make that difficult but will try it next time in the car.

I got some pads thru Driving Impressions website, they are small, unobtrusive and effective. A local sporting goods store will supply what you need also.

softball elbow pads $9.95
work great for me, apparently not quite up to Don's requirements, who test-drove mine a couple of times. I tried some gel pads, didn't cover quite enough of the elbow for me, somebody thankfully stole them forcing me to buy the ones I have now. Now if whoever picked up my arm restraints from the pit wall at M-O would please return them, I'd be happy as a clam...

[donv]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

softball elbow pads $9.95
work great for me, apparently not quite up to Don's requirements, who test-drove mine a couple of times. I tried some gel pads, didn't cover quite enough of the elbow for me, somebody thankfully stole them forcing me to buy the ones I have now. Now if whoever picked up my arm restraints from the pit wall at M-O would please return them, I'd be happy as a clam...

I have a brand new set of what you use harsha, tried them as you said and not quite long enough for me. If you indeed want them I will bring them to RA and you can become the new owner Size large in black still in the package. For anyone else i have a set of OMP elbow pads in red, will donate to whoever may need them, in addtion many generic knee pads in size M-L.

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by donv

I have a brand new set of what you use harsha, tried them as you said and not quite long enough for me. If you indeed want them I will bring them to RA and you can become the new owner Size large in black still in the package.

Not sure about my size.....but bring 'em, Don. If they fit, I'll take 'em.

[donv]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

Not sure about my size.....but bring 'em, Don. If they fit, I'll take 'em.

will do...in the race bag...the ones i borrowed were large so size should be fine

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by donv

Elbow/arm bruising has been a major issue for me, in fact i have been a bloody mess on many occasions in the past. I have a clotting/bruising issue so I have tried numerous types of elbow pads but so far have not found the perfect combination of protection vs bulk. You mention "Hatch gel pads" which I'm not familiar with...i would be very grateful for any additional info on what these are, they may just be the answer to my problem.

thanks

donv

Send me your mailing address and I'll send you a pair. I somehow bought two pair when I thought I was buying two each. SWAT team basic black.

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by Rosso

Send me your mailing address and I'll send you a pair. I somehow bought two pair when I thought I was buying two each. SWAT team basic black.

Mike,
I will be driving through L'vlle on Tuesday AM on my way to RA. If I leave Lex as early as I plan to, should be in town somewhere around 7:15-7:30 am.
Backup plan is I can't crawl out of bed that early (you know what they say about best-laid plans ) and I get there after rush hour at 9:30.

Either way, I can pick them up if you give me an address. Please no alleyways, junkyards, or crackhouses. Opium dens ok.

[donv]

Originally Posted by Rosso

Send me your mailing address and I'll send you a pair. I somehow bought two pair when I thought I was buying two each. SWAT team basic black.

Mike, thanks a lot, I will email you my info.

don

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

Mike,

I will be driving through L'vlle on Tuesday AM on my way to RA. If I leave Lex as early as I plan to, should be in town somewhere around 7:15-7:30 am.

Backup plan is I can't crawl out of bed that early (you know what they say about best-laid plans ) and I get there after rush hour at 9:30.



Either way, I can pick them up if you give me an address. Please no alleyways, junkyards, or crackhouses. Opium dens ok.

38° 14' 2.40" N

85° 41' 38.15" W