Doing 2day adv laguna seca.. quick question

[ffrgtm]

Hello all!

Im a soon to be 21 year old about to attend a 2 day adv formula school at laguna seca this weekend. Around this time last year I did the 3 day school and felt like I was doing fairly well, although my car had nicer tyres than everyone elses (it had "big boy" written on the bulkhead haha) so I'm not sure how much of that was me. I've been doing some driving in iRacing to try and get a little preparation because there is no damage insurance (unlike the 3 day) so I'm a little worried.

I always trail brake into corners in autox and on the street but I remember the skippy instructors saying last year that I should be balanced on the gas BEFORE turn in. This strikes me as a bit odd as thats just not how the traction circle works... I was told it was ok to trail brake into the lower speed corners which confused me even more. I've been trail braking into all corners in iracing but my driving is still very erratic because I feel like I cant look far enough ahead.

I'm wondering if the reason they want you to be balanced on the throttle on turn in is because the car is not correctly engineered: all tires are the same size despite an obvious rearward weight bias. Or am I missing something... my driving technique is far from perfect.

Anyways thanks for any advice, I really need something to calm my nerves before I get to this school.

[Ryan Hall]

First off Welcome Back!

You generally Trail Brake Rotate into slower speed corners (depending on corner) to rotate the car a little bit on entry so you can get the car straighter coming out sooner. The sooner you can get the car straight, the faster you can get back to full power.
In other corners you may need just a brush of the brake, a tap, or just a slight lift of the gas to get though. The reason they were telling you add power through the corner is to transfer load to the back of the car. If you enter a higher speed corner with the weight on the front of the car it will make the car very unsettling at the least. Braking at the last possible second isnt always the best option.

When you do your school, they'll go over it with you again. And if you have any questions, dont hesitate to ask

Hope this helps a little

[ffrgtm]

Thanks Ryan
That does help and is pretty much exactly what I remember being taught... I'm curious though if this technique changes as your car control ability improves. Is being completely off the brakes and back on neutral throttle before turn in still used at the upper levels of racing? The only reason I ask is it seems like all of my driving handbooks seem to suggest that you NEED to be trailbraking to even get the car to turn in but maybe this is more dependent on the handling balance of the car (im suggesting that these handbooks are based on street cars).

Am I talking myself in circles?

edit: I guess what I'm sort of asking is: Is trailbraking just used much less on open wheel cars because they are less stable than larger, heavier cars with higher polar moments of inertia?

[PFS]

Like Ryan said, a LOT of trail braking is managing weight transfer. We take slow corners at a slow speed because there is a big direction change. The reason we want the brakes on at the turn in is so that the front tire contact patches have more pressure (or wieght) on them which helps the car turn better. The same dynamic would happen in a fast corner but we don't need a big direction change, so we don't need (OR WANT!) a lot of wieght on the front tires to help them turn. Talking our way through a really fast corner, the best approach is sometimes, in fact, to be off the brake and back on power at or before the turn in. So now say we're approaching the apex and we're on some neutral (or "maintenance") throttle now, and at this point, even a lift of that neutral throttle can shift enough weight to the front contact patches and off the rears. The fronts are capable of making a tighter radius, and the rears (having less weight) want to go off on a tangent to the radius of the turn we're in. In other words, the car might spin depending on the size and abruptness of the lift. It's called a TTO, or trailing throttle oversteer.

Throttle through fast corners (even a neutral throttle) will help lower your lap times, but more importantly, it manages and balances the weight of the car so it doesn't rotate on you--even in a perfectly engineered car and regardless of tire size. Basically, the faster the turn the less brake you want at the turn in.

Pete

[rcote]

These guys did a great job of explaining TB. As it pertains to Laguna, the places you'll be trailing the brakes the most are turns 2 and 11. You MAY also trail them alil bit at turn 3, turn 5, although with the camber helping you there you can get to pretty big throttle, pretty early there, and also the first turn, (left) at the top of the corkscrew you will trail a lil bit at turn-in. Beisdes those places trailing the brake, especially quickly popping off the brake pedal will get you in big trouble. Fast corners like 4, 6, 9,and 10 you'll definitely want to be on some throttle just before or as you turn in.

No need to be nervous. You'll have great instructors, and the ADV2 as with all Skip programs teaches you to work on technique and BUILD speed up. I'm sure during the van or drive arounds the instructors will make it very clear on what you should be concentrating on with your footwork in specific corners. If you're not clear on something just make sure you speak up and ask... That's what instructors are for. If you don't already, it's a good habit to get in to carry a track map with you and make notes during these drive arounds, and even take notes on it from your feedback and debriefing. The maps are usually provided in the schools, if not already sent to you with your confirmation package. Just make sure you get some good sleep the night beofre and get ready to soak it all in and MOST importantly.. have fun !!!!!

[ffrgtm]

Thank you so much Ryan, Pete, and rCote! That really helped me come to grips with some of this. I'm damn excited now (my flight leaves tomorrow) and I'll be clamping my new gopro hero (thanks santa) on, maybe I can contribute some videos on monday

[dalyduo]

Great thread!
We've all been there Ben...
Thanks for sharing your excitement and concerns. Good luck at your 2 day and we'll look forward to hearing about your experience and seeing the video.
Expressing excitement and concerns at the beginning of your journey and receiving an informational group hug from three experienced Skip Barber instructors is what this site and the Skip Barber experience is all about.

Bravo and well done Ryan, Peter and Roger.

[rslonaker]

the rears (having less weight) want to go off on a tangent to the radius of the turn we're in. In other words, the car might spin depending on the size and abruptness of the lift. It's called a TTO, or trailing throttle oversteer.

Pete[/QUOTE]


I hate it when the rear tires go off on some tangent of their own, very upsetting...

[PFS]

Originally Posted by rslonaker

I hate it when the rear tires go off on some tangent of their own, very upsetting...

Very upsetting, indeed. I go off on tangents all the time in the classroom just to show the students how upsetting it can be! The difference is, they can control the tire tangents, but they can't control mine! Mwahahaha

[ffrgtm]

brought my go pro and took some video... heres a quick sample. As far as the pass in turn two... he later came up and said he let me go by like that because he thought he could just catch me... never happened though I really was having trouble getting used to building enough pressure initially at the end of the straight... driving on the street really has given me bad braking technique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqfgbmlUxYs

[dalyduo]

You're line looks tidy and smooth. Nice job.

That left front only lock-up occurred because turning left while braking loads the right front and lightens the left enough for lock up. That's especially true where the track is falling away from you as it is in turn 2. Not sure but you may have also added some brake in anticipation of the guy you were passing moving down on you. With practice you'll be able to better modulate that.

I'm told a more forgiving compound and tread pattern of BF Goodrich tire is being used on the cars at Laguna and they are much easier to modulate.

How was your overall experience of the track, instructors and course? Were some of your questions about trail braking answered?