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  #1  
Old 05-05-2007
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Lets talk rain driving guys...Threads Merged

Rain races run as many minutes as dry races but fewer laps, the rationale being that keeping race times constant ensures all sessions get run. Makes sense on Saturdays which are tightly scheduled with qualifying and racing.

But if it rains on Sunday, why not run the full number of dry race LAPS? It will take longer, but there's enough gas as we're going slower.

More racing/seat time, less wear and tear on the cars and more customer benefit as we become better rain drivers.
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Old 05-05-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

Interesting idea. I agree that full length Sunday races would be great, rain or shine.
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Old 05-06-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

I'm with you. Every effort should be made to keep the wet races the same number of laps as the dry ones, whether Saturday or Sunday. I think it may be even more important to maximize race time in the wet, since rain doesn't occur that often so not enough teaching is done under wet conditions, where everything is even more counterintuitive. The only way to improve is to get as much practice as possible whenever the opportunity comes up, especially under race conditions.
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Old 05-07-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

I am always glad when the wet races are over.....if i make it to the checker. the longer we are out in the rain the greater the chances for broken cars. However i am always in favor of being out on the track more.
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Old 05-07-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

Well the longer you are out on the track in any weather the more likely you are to have an incident. Everyone just has to drive within their limits.
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Old 05-07-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

I absolutely LOVE the rain. Give me a beautiful sunny day, or a torrential downpour. They are all blessed racing conditions. Everything in between perfect as well, now that I think about it.
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Old 05-08-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

One of Gerardo's observations on van arounds in the rain goes something like: In the rain you crash going slower.

Jochen Rindt's aphorism (conveyed by Pete Argetsinger): You can drive just as fast in the wet - as long as your hands are straight.

Somewhere between these happy thoughts lies a steep learning curve to real satisfaction finding grip limits every lap. Leaving aside no visibility moments, running in wet - best of all, changing wet - lets us learn faster, even fastest. Revere's foot slipped off the brake at the end of the wet straight at Putnam one year. He'd conceded an off, hoping he'd stop before the fence a long way in the distance across grass, but decided to try turning and risk going off sideways. The car stuck at the rim and he learned he could do that lap after lap.

Once we overcome phobic fear of the wet and are willing to take what seem big risks but aren't, running in the wet is challenging, but fun - just like other aspects of racing. I agree with Sy, all racing is good, so the more racing we can get, the better.

What I'm lobbying for is more seat time for fun - and learning - in the wet.
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Old 05-08-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

Quote:
Originally Posted by sydude
I absolutely LOVE the rain. Give me a beautiful sunny day, or a torrential downpour. They are all blessed racing conditions. Everything in between perfect as well, now that I think about it.
Sick, sick, sick! Sy, were you at Mid-Ohio two years ago for the Wednesday morning lapping session in the post-Katrina biblical deluge? That was pavement based hydroplane racing. And back then the frost-heaved rain line at M-O was like driving over row after row of speed bumps.

Which of you guys said their wife was stranded in a downtown New Orleans hotel but it still had power, so you thought you would do the race weekend anyway?
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Old 05-08-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

Dad,

Please don't tell people these things.

Revere
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Old 05-08-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

Revere - do you think anyone's actually crazy enough to try it?! (I will!)

Ken - nope, that wasn't me, unfortunately!
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Old 05-08-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgreist
Dad,

Please don't tell people these things.

Revere
Confidentiality is for patients.

In the memorable words of TE: Your secret is safe with me.
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Old 05-08-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

The van arounds are ok, but i would prefer to walk the track or at least the corners. It seems there can be subtle elevation and grip changes on the racing surface that are difficult to see while in a car.
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Old 05-08-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

Craig,

If you're in a van during a light rain, you can ask the instructor to stop at a corner or two, get out, and slide your shoes across the surface, from apex to rim. It will give you a nice impression of the grip without having to walk the whole course in the rain.
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Old 05-08-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

Funny how in my latest newsletter I talked a little about driving in the rain. Content enclosed:

Tips for Improving
With all the recent rain, it seems appropriate to talk a little about rain driving. I know a lot of drivers are reluctant to drive on a wet track or are intimidated by it. Don’t be. Rain driving is a great way to improve your driving skill. A little knowledge and understanding goes a long way to helping. The biggest thing is the reduced grip, so rain driving becomes a quest to finding what grip is available. Many times this means altering your line, hence the “rain line”. I know some of the clubs don’t teach the rain line due to the potential for confusion when working with 100+ drivers in the course of a day during a DE. But if you have a few days under your belt, it is worth experimenting.
The biggest thing to keep in mind is the effect of everyone driving the normal or “dry” line day after day. All the rubber and oils that get ground into the asphalt on the dry line create a very effective sealer with the resulting imperviousness of the water on this part of the track. So drive off line in the rain. Think about the places that get the hardest use in the dry and these are the locations that will be the slickest in the wet. Braking zones, apex’s and low speed track outs are especially treacherous. Move in a lane in the brake zones, drive around the outside of the corner closer to the edge of the track opposite the apex and be very careful applying power at track out. In fact make a rule to never go to full throttle unless your steering wheel is completely straight.
The main rule is, be open to searching for grip. If where you are driving is difficult, try a different part of the track. In changing conditions, starting to rain, or starting to dry, the key is identifying where the grip is. You might not drive the same line twice on any two consecutive laps. The bigger hazard is when it is starting to rain. One lap, or even one corner, everything is fine and the next, your sliding off the road. Be aware of your conditions and be ready to adapt quickly. On bigger tracks like Watkins Glen it is possible to have a dry line on one portion of the track and rain line on another. Typically the older the pavement, the more pronounced the effect of the rain line. Learn from the other drivers around you. If somebody is passing you and driving away, try their line. Or their rain tires…
Tune into your control inputs and don’t do anything abrupt or sudden. Rain rewards smoothness, which translates back to your dry driving as well. Really pay attention to how you use the pedals, squeeeeze on the throttle and brake and use a very soft release for each as well. Most of all enjoy the experience as there is a lot to be gained from it and it will improve your driving overall.
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Old 05-08-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

Rob,

What fun to do lead-follow with you in the rain!
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Old 05-08-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

Rain or dry, i will be asking to walk parts of the track.
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Old 05-09-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

Quote:
Originally Posted by chsutherland
The van arounds are ok, but i would prefer to walk the track or at least the corners. It seems there can be subtle elevation and grip changes on the racing surface that are difficult to see while in a car.
I'm with you on walking, or at least a very slow drive-around with opportunities to stop and get out. Not only do I get a better feel for the surface and camber, but I get a better sense of the sight pictures through the corners (especially when trying to learn a new track). On a van-around, they go by too quickly, and if you're in the back of the bus where I usually end up, fuggeddaboudid.

I got a lot better at Road Atlanta and Sebring once I walked them. Lime Rock it apparently didn't help. I still crashed.
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Old 05-09-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

In my 3 Day Adv Bobo (in one of his first instructing stints) asked us "what do you do if it is raining"? We dutifully called out the usual answers "smooth, slower, loosen up bars (if only we could), dry shoes....etc" to which Bobo simply replied "no....SMILE"! Rain is an equalizer of fast and noob drivers and I couldn't agree more. A wet track means more drivers will have 4-offs and everyone will be 'penalized' for the same lack of grip. I always see a wet track as an opportunity for a podium I might not otherwise have.

There are few situations where you can learn so much about the handling of the car and the nuances of a race track.

I have always remembered Bobo's small bit of advice and it works
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Old 05-09-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

Couldn't agree more Doug. The smile puts you ahead of 5/6ths of the other drivers walking around with frowns and furrowed brows.

Got my first podium at LRP in heavy rain when several faster guys moved me up after throwing themselves off.

And it's very true that with lower speeds you have more time to collect things and do less damage when you collect other things.
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Old 05-09-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

oh yeah, forgot to say there is nothing more exciting than finding the changing grip of a drying track in the heat of battle.....

Also, I vote yea on the thread topic, run full # of laps in rain when time/sched permit.
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Old 05-09-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

Big smiles for sure once we begin to sort out wet running.

Even bigger when we realize many are grimacing.

Biggest smiles now that Revere and I have special vision goggles that let us see through spray.

Question remains: will SBR permit longer races when it rains on Sundays (Saturdays at LRP)?
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Old 05-09-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

The most fun I've ever had in a Skippy car was February at Sebring on a wet but drying track Sunday morning. Chris Brassard, Luca Orlandi, I, and Rick Balsley (for a while) broke away and lapped that track within about a foot of each other while sliding around the whole time. I thought more than once that someone would collect someone else, but we all managed great saves just when it seemed contact was inevitable. Passing and re-passing one another, drifting through 1 and 17 within inches of each other's hamsters-- it was incredible, like dirt-trackin'! I remember at one point I was leading and dutifully braking early and side-stepping the brake zone into the hairpin, and Chris comes sailing by me on the extreme inside about 20 mph faster and braking 2 brake markers deeper. He had been the first to notice that the grip had improved significantly, and went on to win by a couple of car lengths. I learned a lot in that one move...
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  #23  
Old 05-09-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

Having watched the above mentioned raced i can say it was a blast to watch. I also have some clips of Greist & Co. screaming past me at RA in a down pour. If i can figure out how to work the quicktime pro i paid for i will post them.
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Old 05-09-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Greist
Biggest smiles now that Revere and I have special vision goggles that let us see through spray.
I have been told that if you are leading, there is no spray!
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Old 05-09-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

Quote:
Originally Posted by chsutherland
Having watched the above mentioned raced i can say it was a blast to watch. I also have some clips of Greist & Co. screaming past me at RA in a down pour. If i can figure out how to work the quicktime pro i paid for i will post them.
Sy's forward and aft camera show at Mt. Tremblant a few years ago is spectacular too. Wish I knew how to resurrect it.
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Old 05-09-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Greist
Sy's forward and aft camera show at Mt. Tremblant a few years ago is spectacular too. Wish I knew how to resurrect it.
Here is the video link, it's in the TJR video collection above.
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Old 05-09-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

Rob's right: rain calls for experimentation with different lines and greater smoothness.

Gerardo is also right: adopting a positive attitude when it's raining pays real dividends.

My personal preference is to embrace the rain by recognizing that I'm going to get soaked in the car, and thus not using an umbrella when I'm out of it. It's the process of getting wet that's uncomfortable. Once you're wet, you hardly notice it.
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Old 05-09-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

When raining I revert to a Skippy driving suit and an old golf rain suit if it's cool to avoid the chill at speed. Agreed, you're going to get soaked so just go with it.

Being wet in the racecar is usually irrelevant because you're concentrating too hard to notice. Will never forget seeing Dom after an extremely wet race at Lime Rock when he knocked most of the nose off early and came in for his safety check. They tore off the loose pieces and sent him back out with the whole front of the car open during torrential rain. He finished the race (gaining back quite a few positions) and I asked him what it was like driving without the nose. He shrugged it off like he'd hardly noticed the difference but he looked like one of the hurricane Katrina survivors they plucked from trees after the storm. Soaked to the bone with bits of mud, grass and debris stuck to every inch of the front of his driving suit. Quite a site.
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  #29  
Old 05-11-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain

I've had one Skippy rain race, last year at VIR..also one in a GT2 and one in formula ford (1982 or there abouts).. In all I did realtively well..In the GT2 and FF race I had mid pack grid posistions. In the Skippy race i was gridded last. Here's what I know> light throtle, and always accelerate and break in a straight line. And of course, all the other advice on racing the rim or dryest line. But what;s help the most is being able to see. In the FF race I borrowed a pals plastic medical mask that had a tube which i was able to wedge under my helmet..
At Vir last year, i had a yellow visor and wedged it open with a roll of duck tape, I also ducked taped my nose so as to funel air down and out. I went strait up the middle at the start and was up to 8th in a few laps,,unfortantly spun but still finished 11th. Rain does make the grid more even ..and sometimes you just have to have a little more balls than the next guy..the FF race was at Charlotte, at the turn in to the infield there was a puddle just at the apex and everyone broke and went wide, I went thru it and found I had gone from 14th to 4th
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Old 08-02-2007
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Lets talk rain driving guys...

First off, I would like to say what a great job everybody did in the rain on Saturday. Rain sucks to most of us. But it is the same for all of us too. I tried to cover the rain the best I could with many new to rain drivers. Lets talk some key points to remember here. Start out with a good attitude and stay dry! Did I mention stay dry? A lot of excited drivers walking around in the rain prior to their race ended up very soaked and cold during their race. I did the best I could to remind each driver as they left the pits about a quick and dirty how to drive. OK.... let me remind those who have not done it, or will again drive in the rain.

* Brake off the racing line... sometimes 100% opposite the track!

*Rim shots are often times the best grip (1' from the outside grass!)

*Brake more in a straight line, and less brake and turn helps

*Accelerate off line as much as you can.

*Select a higher gear to avoid wheelspin in slower/slicker corners (3rd vs 2nd, etc.)

*Have a clear and clean shield always available and rainx'd up

*Have an extra pair of socks for your second round/race

*Get a $40 rain suit from Edwin Watts golf store.

*Get a golf towell from above store(no relation by the way). You put the towel in the seat and step onto it and smother your feet on it, then just sit on it. It will also keep the seat dry some too...

*Have a set of gloves that has the ultra soft leather across the knuckles. This is actually for a rewipe on the shield. It will act just like a Chamois after you wash your car.

*If you wear glasses, a little roll of duct tape in the corner of the shield to keep it from closing all the way helps with fog. Most of your poly carbonate eye glasses are ok with fog x and I also like to put fog x on the inside of the shield. Be sure to do a test on your glasses before you spray them down!

Feel free to ask away and add to my list. There is nothing MORE intimidating that watching your competition smile and being prepared. You feel behind and confused and they are suited, rain x'd, towel for the feet, etc. Meanwhile you are running for the clear shield and for paper towels! Scouts motto.........be prepared! Hope we can avoid the rain at Mid Ohio. Their grass is really green for a reason! Good luck, Keith W.
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  #31  
Old 08-02-2007
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Re: Lets talk rain driving guys...

A lesson learned in the rain at Lime Rock -- do not use a tear-off in wet conditions. Moisture can be trapped between the visor and the tear-off, completely obscuring vision.
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Old 08-02-2007
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Re: Lets talk rain driving guys...

Quote:
Originally Posted by WatertownNewbie
A lesson learned in the rain at Lime Rock -- do not use a tear-off in wet conditions. Moisture can be trapped between the visor and the tear-off, completely obscuring vision.
NO KIDDING! Good to add to the list.
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  #33  
Old 08-02-2007
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Re: Lets talk rain driving guys...

Don't forget to use full throttle on the straights! Just remember to go to the brakes early, often and progressively. You have a lot more grip for accelerating and slowing in a straight line (off the polished racing line) than you do while cornering so don't forget to use it!
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  #34  
Old 08-02-2007
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Re: Lets talk rain driving guys...

Congratulations to all who attended at Mt Tremblant. I had a great time in my first rain soaked race. In group 2 race 1, we definately had a very wet, slick track. Thanks to Eric Brumme for the Rainx pre-race. Thanks to all of the instructors and racers for their pre-race encouragement.
The visibility was my biggest challenge of the day and I have to echo Pat's comment that early braking was essential. A good peripheral sight picture from the lapping day and practice certainly helped me to avoid contact with rooster tails splattering my visor (especially into turn 10!!)
The race certainly tested my car control skills and quick change to the race line. Having MHP in my ear as a radio coach was also a great benefit as I tried to concentrate on the rain line.
I've heard alot of racers moan about the rain, but Sat was one of the best learning experiances I've had in a Skippy car. No spins or four offs and managed a P7.
M.T. was a supurb venue for me and my whole family. Skippy guys are awesome and I'm glad to be a small part of the family - Scott
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  #35  
Old 08-02-2007
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Re: Lets talk rain driving guys...

I don't carry a rain suit, but after Katrina Wednesday at Mid Ohio two years ago and a monsoon Thursday at Laguna no-Seca the year before that, I carry a heavy duty 8 mil 40 gallon trash bag in my gear bag. Cut three holes and at least your torso will stay dry. I also found that my hi-vis yellow face shield was worthless in determining if the track was drying in places. You can find all manner of face shield squeeges, sponges or chamois that clip onto your glove at motorcycle shops, or on line at http://www.aerostich.com/catalog/US/...e-p-16506.html. I think I used a hotel towel to put in the seat.
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  #36  
Old 08-02-2007
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Thumbs up Re: Lets talk rain driving guys...

Here are is my rain approach:

1. Embrace the rain. A positive attitude goes a long way toward going quickly in the rain. Part of embracing the rain, for me at least, means getting wet. Really wet. When I'm soaked, I know there's no escaping the reality of a wet track, and I settle into the business at hand.

2. Do not turn and brake. No trail braking. In the wet, the car will turn or brake, but not both simultaneously. Brake in a straight line, release the brake, squeeze throttle until you get a steady-state push mid corner, and experiment with how quickly you can go to full throttle on corner exit. The car will probably need to be close to straight in slower corners, and less so in faster ones.

3. Relax. Your whole body; your mind; your hands. If you're relaxed, you'll feel what the car wants to do and obey. You obey the car and the track conditions in the rain, not the other way around.

4. Don't worry about poor visibility. You pretty much know where the track goes, so if you can't see for a few seconds, don't panic. You'll be able to see again soon. Driving without being able to see for a few moments reminds you that you've got balls (or ovaries, or whatever) and can do this stuff. However, don't use a smoke or dark visor unless you are a Jedi Knight ("I can't see anything with the blast shield down.")

5. Love the rim. Own the rim. The grip is at the rim. Almost always. And the rim really, really means the rim. Know where the dry line is on straights that aren't straight (e.g. kink to Canada at RA and 12 to Namerow at Tremblant) and stay away from it.

6. Never, ever, under any circumstances, give up.
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  #37  
Old 08-03-2007
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Re: Lets talk rain driving guys...

Revere,

All great points especially #1, i try to think about the advantage i have in an upcoming race when many drivers tend to over-compensate on a wet track, especially early on. In addition there will be those that under-compensate and go off, in the end that is great for me and reduces the field.

My quantum leaps in wet driving have all come with confidence, it is the key to improving in all racing but in the wet it means everything.
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  #38  
Old 08-03-2007
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Re: More racing in the rain-Combined Threads

"Let's Talk Rain Driving" merged with earlier thread "More racing in the rain ".....cdh
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  #39  
Old 08-07-2007
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Re: Lets talk rain driving guys...Threads Merged

Revere is correct; "never give up".

I did at Mt. Tremblant and have been rueful since.

My visor fogged up so bad that I didn't even know where I was on the track and deemed myself an extreme hazard to everyone.

I've driven in the rain many times before and generally do better in the wet than drivers I can't compete with in the dry.
The rain is a great equalizer as everyone is traction limited and the lighter weight drivers can't motor away from me on the wet straights.

I did all the right things to prevent my visor from fogging... and a few wrong one.
To wit: I used Rain-X on the outer surface and Rain-X Anti-Fog on the inside, and the visor was slightly cracked open for more air flow.

Things went well during the recon laps as we were fairly well spaced out, but as soon as we formed up, the fogging started.
When we went green, it was as if someone pulled a shade down blinding me; it wasn't the spray ( I've dealt with that with even harder rain at M.T., it was the "catastrophic condensation'.)

I cracked the visor a little more when it didn't clear up, whereupon, it got soaked on the inside.

I eventually opened it up so I could see through squinty eyes in the pelting rain so I could get back to the pits with some semblance of safety. In the meantime, I let the entire field pass me.

Once I reached the pits, I was so disgusted and knew that I'd be down a lap if and when I got my visor cleared, I just said
'&%#* @$' ' or something to that effect.
I was so disappointed because I had qualified sixth or seventh and thought I'd have a good result.

Two big things I think I did wrong are 1) I kept my helmet in the air conditioned room, (as did others who did not appear to manifest the identical problem) and 2) my visor is getting old and I never polished it. I think the second reason is probably the more significant because the moisture will form and 'grip' on a rough surface even if it is microscopic, and thus prevented the Rain-X from doing its job.

Anyway, I wish I had asked for some help from the mechanics to paper towel the inside and outside of the visor and then continue with the race. They went full yellow caution, and thinking I may have been able to rejoin before the entire field went by I'd at least would had someone to race with.

Listen to Revere; he knows stuff.
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  #40  
Old 08-07-2007
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Re: Lets talk rain driving guys...Threads Merged

Andy, I try not to get too spiritual in public. All went well, but boy I sure had a doubtful mind before that race started. A lot of sportsmen, and a lot of rain, and a lot of emotions. Maybe that's just the motherly instinct we all have some of. Either way, don't second guess your decision too much. Maybe it was the "right" thing to do. I saw a lot of fogged visors and stood in the rain on pit wall and motioned for several guys to "wipe" their shield. Some guys were very fogged up. I agree, after a while, the shield just won't hold that Fog-X well. Not sure why. You did a great job this weekend. Keith W.
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Old 08-07-2007
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Re: Lets talk rain driving guys...Threads Merged

Some helmet manufacturers have "anti-fog" shields available, such as Arai. Andy, I think you said you couldn't find one for your brand though. In that case, FogCity anti-fog inserts do work pretty well.

Visibility, it's soooooo overrated !

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  #42  
Old 08-07-2007
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Re: Lets talk rain driving guys...Threads Merged

Thanks Keith, coming from you means a lot to me. Now I don't feel too regretful.

Tireman! Thanks for to tip. Someone mentioned 'fog city' to me at the track, (maybe you?) and I did check with Pegasus and they have them for my helmet (OMP). I will order one post haste, then hope for rain at M.O. (Not really!) (I mean about the rain.) Plus I'll get a little piece of chamois and tuck in my suit; plus duct tape my nose; plus polish the visor. This is WAR!
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Old 08-07-2007
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Re: Lets talk rain driving guys...Threads Merged

Yep, that was me Andrew !!

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Old 08-08-2007
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Re: Lets talk rain driving guys...Threads Merged

Combining Rob's, Keith's, and Revere's posts provides one with an absolutely free copy of the Team Juicy Comprehensive Primer on Rain Driving. If you follow their recommendations to the letter, you will discover that there is grip out there! No one has an excuse now for not knowing how to go faster!

I recently started using the Bell Fog-Free visors with my Vortex helmet and they work really well. No additives necessary, they stay fog free no matter how humid it is. I just apply a tape shield to the end of my nose to direct the breath down and that's it. No need to crack open the visor with tape. I don't even put Rain-X on the outside-- haven't really noticed that it makes a big difference for me with the polycarb visors.
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