Gear Talk: Anyone had any experience with the defNder Neck Protection device? (First post here)

[RocketPunch]

Hi all! I did a search and got nothing regarding the defNder.

Just wonder if anyone had any experience with the defNder Neck Protection device? It is a HANS alternative, a bit cheaper and best of all the angle is adjustable to fit any vehicle type.

Thanks ahead.

[Jim Pace]

The HANS is a proven safety device. For the cost difference in alternatives cut your budget elsewhere. Don't paint the helmet? Run 30 minutes less track time one day etc... We all understand running on a tight budget but don't cut the corner with safety. I still use my original HANS from many years ago. Shoes, gloves, suits & helmets all wear out quickly but the HANS will out last them all. When alternatives prove to be safer, pay whatever they cost at that time.
Many drivers use one HANS for formula and closed cars.
For now the HANS is a great way to be prepared. Be safe.
Merry Christmas,
JP

[RocketPunch]

I know HANS is a proven safety device, but the defNder offered something more, which is lateral protection. The device is SFI-38.1 certified and pending FIA homologation. Just wanted to find out if anyone had any experience with it.

[Jim Pace]

My point is don't make the decision because it is cheaper. When the "next" device proves to be BETTER then get it whatever it is. Please let us know what you find out as all are interested in safety.
Jim

[cooleyjb]

I spent probably more time than anyone else at the PRI booth playing with the device. I was convinced. I'm going to carry it in my store and I'm switching to it from my HANS. It offers better offset impact protection and is more comfortable.

It's not really a 'budget' device as teh Sport Hans is only slightly more expensive and some of teh other players are in the same range as well.

[John Greist]

Very interesting. Agree with Jim - no price on safety. Revere and I are running the same HANS we got in 2000 and recertified last season after being tested once by both of us.

At the same time, intrigued by the possibility of even greater safety. Where can we read about the new device?

The hardest thing to understand is running without at least the sportsman HANS. Shows the strength of denial, an often useful but sometimes fatal mental defense mechanism.

[cooleyjb]

Originally Posted by John Greist

Very interesting. Agree with Jim - no price on safety. Revere and I are running the same HANS we got in 2000 and recertified last season after being tested once by both of us.

At the same time, intrigued by the possibility of even greater safety. Where can we read about the new device?

The hardest thing to understand is running without at least the sportsman HANS. Shows the strength of denial, an often useful but sometimes fatal mental defense mechanism.

The companies website is here

http://www.defnder.com/

Trackpedia has a little info about it as well and some good general info on all HNR available.

www.trackpedia.com

I unfortunately don't live in Madison anymore otherwise I'd walk down teh road and let you play with it.

The only issue would be in the more extremem laydown positions and larger chin helmets there may be some interference.

[John Greist]

Thanks Joe. Interesting Web Site. Good to handle it as you suggest. May be more comfortable than HANS, though I don't notice mine anymore.

[dalyduo]

We've seen a few different head and neck restraints introduced over the past 6 years and as far as I know they've all faded away. All of these devices claim to provide more or better protection than the HANS and all have more parts and in most cases are more cumbersome.

While this device may provide some additional side impact protection, the obvious question is how many serious injuries and deaths occur in racing each year due to side impact injury?

The attraction of the HANS is its simple elegance in saving lives. It is a one piece incredibly strong device that will, in most cases, outlive most of our racing careers.

Is it possible they've created a device to solve a problem that isn't really a problem? Don't see any stats to quantify its effectiveness other than the test results. Not suggesting it couldn't provide more protection. Just haven't heard of or been educated about the need for this extra protection.

I think there would need to be a significant quantifiable safety improvement for this device to be embraced by the racing community over the HANS because of its added size and complexity.

Time will tell.

[cooleyjb]

Actually all of the head restraints that have come on the market are getting greater and greater exposure and market share.

The only one that I can think of that has dropped off is the Hutchens basket, cats cradle thingy.

The Safety Solutions R3 is becoming much more common as people like it's ability to use in a 3 point system for coaching. The Leatt is getting good traction in karting and could carry that momentum up to the road racing ranks.

There is also the Isaac which has a small but very strong following.

HANS is embraced by the community for a couple of main reasons.

1. It was the first on teh market by a big margin and because of that has become the big kid on the block.

2. FIA standards (which are essentially written for a HANS device only) are only met by HANS so outside of the US where SFI is a non-factor it is still the only game in town.


As for cumbersome compared to HANS.

1. The R3 is often considered less cumbersome as teh meat of the device is attached along your back.

2. The Leatt seems to be significantly more cumbersome.

3. The Isaac attaches to teh belts and is left in the car when a driver must egress so one could consider it's level of bulk almost none.

4. The DefNder is only slightly more cumbersome mainly due to the belt guides.

Out of the 4 I have listed one of them actually requires a very explicit set of guidelines to be met by the belt and seat geometry. Skippy cars do not meet these requirements which increases the likelihood that the belts can come off the HANS device in an offset hit or after any initial frontal impact large enough to stretch the belts.

[John Greist]

Belts slipping off HANS has been a problem for some in Skippy cars, though less with newer models with raised lips on upper outer edges of yoke. Clearly a matter of fit as Revere and I never had that problem though ours are an early model without the lips. We are of the school that believes you can't get your harness too tight and counteract any loosening in Skippy cars by tightening on straights. Haven't had the loosening problem in FCs.

Any credible data on actual cervical fractures and deaths with any HNS device? Clearly most experience with HANS and Ns may be too small to gain any meaningful data for the others.

Three deaths in Vintage Racing this year with none of the drivers wearing a HNS is credible, regardless of the N.

[cooleyjb]

Originally Posted by John Greist

Belts slipping off HANS has been a problem for some in Skippy cars, though less with newer models with raised lips on upper outer edges of yoke. Clearly a matter of fit as Revere and I never had that problem though ours are an early model without the lips. We are of the school that believes you can't get your harness too tight and counteract any loosening in Skippy cars by tightening on straights. Haven't had the loosening problem in FCs.

Any credible data on actual cervical fractures and deaths with any HNS device? Clearly most experience with HANS and Ns may be too small to gain any meaningful data for the others.

Three deaths in Vintage Racing this year with none of the drivers wearing a HNS is credible, regardless of the N.

There are two types of belt slipping off. The first is when you are driving around the course and that is (from my experience) due to a combo of two things. Loose belts and a less than ideal shoulder harness mounting.

The second type is the kind that you don't find out about until you have an impact. I have no experience in this but I'd guess that it is also due to belt geometry more than anything. The shoulder harnesses are supposed to be mounted with a 3" gap in between teh webbing and a max of 8" behind the driver. The distance behind the driver isn't a problem in purpose built racecars but up until the last couple of years has the spacing between the belts been addressed and most often it is done with a retrofit. I didn't measure but the spacing in the Skippy cars looked to be 6-8" or thereabouts. I had no issue with the belts staying on my HANS when turning laps but this is the issue I'm most concerned about when getting into new cars. Also after an initial impact belts will have stretched and the HANS device will come out from under the belts and the secondary impacts have little or no protection for the head/neck.

It boils down to: There are a lot of choices out there. Just be sure to be informed about them and understand the box that they were constructed in and in which they are designed to perform.

[cdh]

Thanks for all this info - interesting.

Hope they manufacture defender with some other color choice than that green...good for Krohn Racing tho

[cooleyjb]

The green part is paintable (it actually is a paint). I think that everyone is in agreement that the green just isn't a good color.

The stickers are not gel coated in like the HANS label is and it won't lose certification as I am told the HANS will if it is painted.

[Bob Zecca]

A few weeks ago Hans launched a lawsuit against the Defnder based on a patent infringement. I believe the date was December 4th. We will see? The bottom line is why gamble when you know the Hans works and is proven. From what I heard at the PRI show the Defnder is one size fits all and this is done with screws. I do not know if I would trust this??? You can adjust both the width and angle but what if something backs out or fails?

[John Greist]

Leaving lawyers and lawsuits aside - it's only 99% of lawyers that give all the others a bad name - what's really needed are data about efficacy of these appliances in preventing cervical and basil skull fractures.

We aren't going to get randomized controlled trials (RCTs) to resolve the issue but there are still plenty of folks dying out there based on their beliefs that head and neck support (HNS) isn't necessary - at least 3 vintage racers last year. Has anyone reported credible evidence that a HANS user has died of a cervical or basil skull fracture? Until HANS user mortality data are confirmed, the evidence supports continued use of HANS.

I've attached another famous proposal from the British Medical Journal for a RCT of parachutes. The hypothesis was proposed because there are a few reports of people surviving high falls and some scientists resist conclusions unsupported by RCTs. Seems about like the debate on HNS.

[cooleyjb]

Originally Posted by Bob Zecca

A few weeks ago Hans launched a lawsuit against the Defnder based on a patent infringement. I believe the date was December 4th. We will see? The bottom line is why gamble when you know the Hans works and is proven. From what I heard at the PRI show the Defnder is one size fits all and this is done with screws. I do not know if I would trust this??? You can adjust both the width and angle but what if something backs out or fails?

Wow, not what I would expect from you..

As for the lawsuit we'll let the lawyers decide what it really means.

For starters you are making assumptions and you haven't even seen the device yet. It is not width adjustable. The way the device comes aroudn the neck makes it one size fits most (the same basic range as HANS)

You wouldn't trust the screws that adjust the neck angle but the ones that hold the anchors to the helmet for a HANS is just fine? Sounds like a double standard. The device has gone through the same sled tests as a HANS and has better results too.

HANS is a great device but it does have issues. Belts staying in place and offset impact protection are two areas of weakness for the HANS that this device addresses.

[John Greist]

Originally Posted by cooleyjb

The device has gone through the same sled tests as a HANS and has better results too.

HANS is a great device but it does have issues. Belts staying in place and offset impact protection are two areas of weakness for the HANS that this device addresses.

Can you guide us to the results of the sled tests for HANS and defNder? Data are valuable in debates. Still, sled tests are not real world race car "tests." Those are the data we need but they are hard to get which is why artificial tests are done - plus they permit useful instrumentation seldom available in real world situations. It's interesting that accelerometers are being included in ear phones of some drivers in elite series, but they give data on amount of deceleration, not medical injury.

The most credible "test" results in medicine come from large "simple" studies designed to answer a singe or a few questions. The variation that seems possible re HNS is credible data regarding deaths while using a HNS. At present, HANS is the only device where any data of this kind are likely available. Do you have any data addressing this question?

[cooleyjb]

Here is teh best spreadsheet that I have seen that the guy at Trackpedia has compiled from SAE papers and manufacturer claims.

http://www.trackpedia.com/mediawiki/.../HNRmatrix.png

As you can see it is fairly incomplete because teh manufacturers don't release all the data and neither does 38.1

Numbers of HANS vs. DefNder for those who don't want to click on the data. Neck tension numbers

Impact angle-------- HANS------ DefNder

0 degree------------- 934--------- 1117
30 degree----------- 2183--------- 1236

While HANS is slightly better in a direct head on impact it's effectiveness drops off significantly in a 30 degree offset. Most impacts that I've seen are not 0 degree head on impacts.

You may notice that the Hybrid X actually is better in offset hits. While it is a 38.1 device it is drag race specific as you can't turn your head much at all.

One problem with these tests is that the number of them is very small and we aren't ever sure if we are seeing the best numbers, the average numbers or the worst numbers. I've been told by statistics people smarter than me that about 30 sled runs are truly needed to get significant numbers. Each sled run costs 3000 so 200K per device is pretty pricey if you do both 0 and 30 degree hits.



As for real world testing it is tough to say that a HANS saved someones life or they lost their life because they didn't have one on. We've seen people walk away from hits that were horrible (NASCAR superspeedway crashes) and we've seen people die from rather mundane hits (Earnhardts impact which was the equivalent of a 38mph hit so I've read).

The one subjective thing regarding HNR that I have noticed is that people aren't as sorenecked after impacts as they used to be. I have a good friend who went nearly straight into the wall at Mosport this year at 75mph-0mph in .6 seconds according to data. While the rest of him was beat up pretty bad he never mentioned any neck pain and was wearing a HANS.

[John Greist]

Originally Posted by cooleyjb

As for real world testing it is tough to say that a HANS saved someones life or they lost their life because they didn't have one on.

What we're after are reports of deaths or high cervical fractures leading to quadraplegia in drivers wearing HNS. At this point the only device with enough use to have credibility is HANS. I haven't heard of any deaths or paralysis with HANS and if there have been, we'd want to know as many details as possible (e.g., bled out from peripheral arterial injuries, died after multiple organ failure unrelated to head/neck injury, skull penetrated by suspension member [Senna], etc. that wouldn't imply HANS failure).

They're soft data, but better than nothing. We do know drivers are dying of head/neck injury without HANS. Are any reported to have died wearing HANS? Rather like reports of seat belt use in Wisconsin when traffic deaths occur.

[cooleyjb]

The one that comes to mind is the Australian Supercar (or other down under series) driver early this year that went into the wall and died. I do believe he was wearing a HANS. Death was from a brain bleed I believe. I'll see if I can find the reports on that one.

I'll also check and see if there are any others.

The one thing to note is that the HANS does decrease the neck load in the 30 degree hit. I believe that non restrained tension is 5500 or so and the HANS is at 2000.

[John Greist]

Those are the kinds of reports that can shape opinion. Thanks for noting it. As further information on that death is available, I'd like to review it.

[cooleyjb]

Ashley Cooper is the person I was thinking of.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor...46030707_x.htm

Shockingly USA today had a decent article with quotes from series offficials. No direct mention of a HANS device but I'm pretty sure he was wearing one as it is a top level FIA series.

Video here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULeLh98NOdQ

Left hand drive car.

[John Greist]

A competitor was shown wearing a HANS and this review (http://aussieexotics.com/2008/02/27/...edia-statement) stated nothing was found wrong with Ashley Cooper's HANS.

A side hit, hard but not seemingly harder than many others. Did his belt slip off the yoke? Is this an indication of lesser side impact protection you've mentioned? Other equipment (helmet, seat, belts) failure? None acknowledged in reports and they changed the corner the next year. Would like to see official report, but haven't found one.

[cooleyjb]

Originally Posted by John Greist

A competitor was shown wearing a HANS and this review (http://aussieexotics.com/2008/02/27/...edia-statement) stated nothing was found wrong with Ashley Cooper's HANS.

A side hit, hard but not seemingly harder than many others. Did his belt slip off the yoke? Is this an indication of lesser side impact protection you've mentioned? Other equipment (helmet, seat, belts) failure? None acknowledged in reports and they changed the corner the next year. Would like to see official report, but haven't found one.

I sent an email to a buddy who is very up to date wtih these things to see if there was an official report that was released.

Here is a video of a HANS coming out from belts in a sled test

http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/Video/SFIBoth.mpg

The device on the right side is teh Isaac.

[PFS]

Originally Posted by cooleyjb

The one thing to note is that the HANS does decrease the neck load in the 30 degree hit. I believe that non restrained tension is 5500 or so and the HANS is at 2000.

Very interesting discussion. I also wonder if there is a difference in side load force reduction between the HANS with the fixed tethers and the ones with the sliding tethers. Seems to me the angle of the head (where the face is pointed) just after the impact at the 30 degree angle with the sliders would be different than it would be with the fixed, but maybe not.

[cooleyjb]

Originally Posted by PFS

Very interesting discussion. I also wonder if there is a difference in side load force reduction between the HANS with the fixed tethers and the ones with the sliding tethers. Seems to me the angle of the head (where the face is pointed) just after the impact at the 30 degree angle with the sliders would be different than it would be with the fixed, but maybe not.

I've been in a number of discussions about that and haven't heard of any sled test numbers existing in the public domain.

[wbs]

A glance at the design on the website reveals (to me) no radical departure from the HANS design.

The major difference is a sizable side lip. I have a newer HANS device with a lip, but it still doesn't inspire much confidence and I wish HANS made a bigger lip, at least at the top end as the defnder seems to.

A bigger lip would probably go a long way toward quieting me down in the pit grid -- I tend to ask more than once whether my shoulder straps are fully within the yoke side lips.

[Bob Zecca]

I just tried going to the defnder website and it is gone? Is anyone else having the same problem? It says Directory Listing Denied.

[John Greist]

Same result when I tried:

The website declined to show this webpage
HTTP 403
	Most likely causes: This website requires you to log in.
	What you can try:
	[IMG]res://ieframe.dll/bullet.png[/IMG] Go back to the previous page.
	[IMG]res://ieframe.dll/down.png[/IMG] More information This error (HTTP 403 Forbidden) means that Internet Explorer was able to connect to the website, but it does not have permission to view the webpage. For more information about HTTP errors, see Help. Could it be a result of the reported HANS lawsuit?

[cooleyjb]

http://www.defnderneckbrace.com/

[John Greist]

That works. Expanded website name.

[cdh]

hard to believe their site builder didn't make the old url a pointer to this one before going live...

the more I consider their tech the more this design makes sense. As long as it is very robust, which it seems to be, the design has some interesting innovations.

[John Greist]

Needed a procedurally invariant computer program to do that dependably instead of relying on a human. Humans are intuitive but inconsistent, messy and forgetful.

[dalyduo]

Hhhmmm. Isaac does a comparison sled test with a HANS device and the belts slip off... What a surprise! If I went out with my belts as loose as those on that dummy... I'd be the dummy.

While the focus and purpose of the video is to show a shoulder strap slipping off a HANS device, there are a couple of other things shown that probably don't get much notice or consideration. If you look at the range of head motion forward and to the side in the sled tests there is almost no difference between the two devices in side motion even with the HANS being held in place by one shoulder strap. And with one strap there is still less forward and down head motion with the HANS when compared with the Isaac. Because the helmet tethers on the HANS will stabilize the helmet even if only one strap is holding the yoke in place you still have most of the intended protection with one strap. Hadn't considered that before and wouldn't want to test it but glad to see it illustrated in the sled test.

Easy to see why HANS lawyers may be studying the Defender design. Though the Defender is a composite of different pieces bolted together the overall design looks a lot like the HANS.

Originally Posted by cooleyjb

I sent an email to a buddy who is very up to date wtih these things to see if there was an official report that was released.

Here is a video of a HANS coming out from belts in a sled test

http://www.isaacdirect.com/images/Video/SFIBoth.mpg

The device on the right side is teh Isaac.

[cooleyjb]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

Hhhmmm. Isaac does a comparison sled test with a HANS device and the belts slip off... What a surprise! If I went out with my belts as loose as those on that dummy... I'd be the dummy.

While the focus and purpose of the video is to show a shoulder strap slipping off a HANS device, there are a couple of other things shown that probably don't get much notice or consideration. If you look at the range of head motion forward and to the side in the sled tests there is almost no difference between the two devices in side motion even with the HANS being held in place by one shoulder strap. And with one strap there is still less forward and down head motion with the HANS when compared with the Isaac. Because the helmet tethers on the HANS will stabilize the helmet even if only one strap is holding the yoke in place you still have most of the intended protection with one strap. Hadn't considered that before and wouldn't want to test it but glad to see it illustrated in the sled test.

Easy to see why HANS lawyers may be studying the Defender design. Though the Defender is a composite of different pieces bolted together the overall design looks a lot like the HANS.

I am pretty sure those belts were both at the same level of tightness. For those tests they usually hand the device to the testers and the facility is the one that does the 'attaching' of the device to the crash test dummy. The dummies cost roughly 50K last I heard, and they don't want to risk breaking one.

As for it looking like it holds the head in place, that is a subjective result and not really a helpful one. I think the one that would be more useful is what the actual numbers were. I don't think I've ever seen the numbers for when the HANS has come out from under one of the belts.

Many incidents however are more than one hit. What is the scary thing is if you lose the HANS/belt interface in the first hit and then have another.

I'm not an Isaac 'fan' and not a HANS basher as I currently race with a HANS. However HANS does have some areas where improvements could be made IMO and it appears that others have worked on those areas.

[thomas]

I have noticed that this device will be standard in the 2009 Jetta TDi Cup, provided courtesy of VW.

Under Article 4.22.1 of the TDi cup rules and Regs

[dalyduo]

I'm not opposed to building a better mouse trap but everyone who attempts to enter the market has to compare themselves to and claim superiority over the HANS because HANS has established themselves as the standard of the industry. Safety is a lucrative and competitive business. The simple elegance of the HANS device is hard to beat. Not saying it can't be done but it won't be easy.

Safe bet the Defender is the official Jetta TDI Cup device because they are either paying VW sponsorship money and/or giving or discounting the devices to the competitors. Anything for credibility and exposure. Just good marketiing.

Originally Posted by cooleyjb

I'm not an Isaac 'fan' and not a HANS basher as I currently race with a HANS. However HANS does have some areas where improvements could be made IMO and it appears that others have worked on those areas.

[Bob Zecca]

Thank you for the website update. I have been in the safety equipment business since 1983. In 1985 I was one of the first people in the US to sell a unknown company called Sparco and in 87 OMP and now look at these companies. Before I sold Hans it took me two years to make a decision. I met both with Hans and the inventor of the R3 Trevor of Safety Solutions for over 5 hours. When it comes to my customers I do not just jump into selling something that is unknown or proven. I have had too many customers die or get hurt in the past 25 years to make a quick decision on safety based on making a dollar and this is not my idea of putting the customer first. I urge other retailers and racers to really think about this new device before you purchase something to save 20% especially when it comes to safety. For some reason I just do not have a good feeling about it and I probably have more experience than 95% of the retailers in the US presently. I have seen retailers come and go. PLEASE wait and see in the coming months before you go and purchase one of these. My main reason for this is I do not trust all the adjustments/screws on the unit and WHAT IF the customer does not tighten something or something gets stripped. There are just too many variables on something so important. Those are my 2 cents.

[John Greist]

Good discussion.

It's going to be very hard to get good data, so conservative is the best position until convincing data emerge that something new is better.

It would really be something if VW said one COULD NOT USE the HANS. I bet they won't go that far and expect DeFENder did a deal as suggested. That deal doesn't have data behind it.

[thomas]

Originally Posted by Dalyduo

Safe bet the Defender is the official Jetta TDI Cup device because they are either paying VW sponsorship money and/or giving or discounting the devices to the competitors. Anything for credibility and exposure. Just good marketiing.

Oh yeah, that is how it is. The Jetta TDi cup has several sponsorships to offset the costs for the drivers, and without a doubt this one of them. I am kind of neutral on this issue, but would probably choose a hans. However, the point the VW has chosen this device for its factory series does enhance the credibility of the device.

It would really be something if VW said one COULD NOT USE the HANS. I bet they won't go that far and expect DeFENder did a deal as suggested. That deal doesn't have data behind it.

I'm fairly certain that a driver could not use the hans. With a drivers $45k payment will come a driving suit, helmet, and other equipment, and the defender as well.

I was accepted into the program last year but simply could not come up with the money. We would receive a hans device last year. Reason I say that drivers would not be allowed a hans, is because drivers had asked if they could use their own onboard equipment. They were told no, as gopro was one of the sponsors, and all cars were equipped with gopro cameras. It would go against sponsors.

[AlDelattre]

Hey everyone, Happy New Year.....

Been following "HANS v. DefNDer" here for a bit, and am actually in the market for a "head/neck device" - I use a HANS for Skippy cars - which, if you've met me, you know is a nightmare for me (R/T's and me are marginally compatible; add a HANS and it hurts in all the wrong places).

For the odd Miata, PCA, GA race I've done, I've either gone naked (though a 21in neck isn't too naked) or borrowed, since my Type (whatever) HANS doesn't work when I'm not near horizontal.

In my 911 race car, one thing I did right away was add a full-on HANS-compliant race seat with side head protection...it makes getting in/out a bit interesting, but if my body is strapped in, my head can barely move left/right in a wreck....so let's add "seat and cockpit" design to the discussion.

Having said that, I'm a believer....though I might try a DefNDer.....someone has to, I guess...as for screws and nuts, I have a long preflight list of torque-wrenching before I climb in the car (and at times like those, I miss the Skippy Crew Concierge Service! "boy, could you adjust my mirror? my pedals? pull my crotch strap....no, harder!")

Semper Fi