Lead Follow

[chsutherland]

Not sure if anyone else caught this. I was looking at SB's site for the upcoming RA dates and noticed the lead follow prices went down. Well worth the current price. Infact probably undervalued. I am not sure who is currently working the lead follows, but if its still JP then its the best deal in motorsports. I think i gladly paid more than that a few times.
http://www.skipbarber.com/race_series/how_to_start.aspx

[John Greist]

Lead follow is priceless in my book.

[WatertownNewbie]

Well, the price went down a bit and up a bit. Depends on how you fit in your lead-follow. Here's the deal. If you have a practice day scheduled, for example, and you want an instructor to do lead-follow with you during one of your already scheduled (and already paid for) practice sessions, then tack another $700 onto the tab. If you want to add another session on the track and make it a lead-follow too, then tack on $1248.

[donv]

I don't see where the price has gone down no matter how you calculate it, with or without practice? I paid $1800 (2-30 min sessions) before and that included the price of the practice day. It did not include radios which was done private with JP, so i guess you could argue it's now a diferent program. The $1248 is only 1 session, so roughly $2500 vs $1800 seems like more to me.

And yes LF is great

[chsutherland]

I was under the impression it was for the same amount of on-track time, guess i didn't read it throughly. Oops. If i were doing a LF for the first time I would have some sticker shock associated with that one. No question someone will learn more in a LF session than running alone. Glad I got some at the old price!

[John Greist]

Buying lead follow by the "tankful" is one approach to controlling cost and that's the way SBR is pricing it now = $1,248 per 30 minute session.

I'd do a first session of lapping or practice by yourself to warm up, relearn the track and car, then do one tank of gas lead follow. That session is enormously useful and sets up the rest of the weekend. A second session increases what you learn, but the biggest boost for most of us comes in the first session. If doing two sessions, I'd try to separate them by another session or two on your own.

Maximize learning, minimize cost, but do lead follow whatever the cost. I think it's actually a grand economy as the learning curve steepens immediately. Six "tankfuls" of lead follow across a season are equivalent to a year of Skippy without lead follow in my experience. With upcoming prices, that works out to $4,215 extra spent in lead follow versus $29,910 for a six weekend season of lapping, practice and two races - before additional costs such a crash damage - which can also occur during lead follow. So if buying lead follow works as well as I think it does, the benefit/cost ratio is 7.1, a no brainer.

[Mopar92]

Originally Posted by John Greist

Buying lead follow by the "tankful" is one approach to controlling cost and that's the way SBR is pricing it now = $1,248 per 30 minute session.

I'd do a first session of lapping or practice by yourself to warm up, relearn the track and car, then do one tank of gas lead follow. That session is enormously useful and sets up the rest of the weekend. A second session increases what you learn, but the biggest boost for most of us comes in the first session. If doing two sessions, I'd try to separate them by another session or two on your own.

Maximize learning, minimize cost, but do lead follow whatever the cost. I think it's actually a grand economy as the learning curve steepens immediately. Six "tankfuls" of lead follow across a season are equivalent to a year of Skippy without lead follow in my experience. With upcoming prices, that works out to $4,215 extra spent in lead follow versus $29,910 for a six weekend season of lapping, practice and two races - before additional costs such a crash damage - which can also occur during lead follow. So if buying lead follow works as well as I think it does, the benefit/cost ratio is 7.1, a no brainer.

Well said. The L/F is an unreal value. It is a fantastic program and as John said, do the first session as a high speed van around for yourself, then dial it in with the L/F.

[Slowhands]

I'm with you, Dr. G. One year ago I was running in the back of Sportsman at Mid-O. (This year I ran at the back of Champ, but due to reasons TOTALLY beyond my control ) Seriously though, I have improved beyond my wildest dreams ever. I ran a 1:37.1 on Sunday while evil toxins were still rummaging around my brain though certainly not at the near lethal levels achieved Saturday and even then I manged a 37.3) and knew there was a 36 in me in Sunday R2 but crashed out in a spinfest on Lap One in the Keyhole. Now 36s at Mid-O in this particular car is where the big boys play. How is that possible for a good Indian boy who minded his mum and never drove anything more exciting than an Acura Integra and whose idea of CPR was the heel of both hands on the sternum? 3 things that have gotten me up to a speed I never thought possible for me:

1. The first is a secret which I will only tell on the payment of $2000 Canadian in cash. Seriously. No one gets this secret unless they want it bad enough. This is a blatant attempt to raise funds for next season because I do not want to go back to work, but there is a secret and I've learned the American Way.

2. Second is Lead Follow. Dr. G sounds right with his estimations. Without Lead Follow what has taken me one year would likely have taken at LEAST seven times as much seat time based on what I've seen with others who took this up at my age with better skills. Given how many events I have done so far, that translates for me to roughly 38 full skippy seasons. Yowza.

3. Third is car control. For people like Revere, Craig, the instructors (Bobo and Phil being ones I have seen in the wet) the superfast karters-- track conditions have NO bearing on their ability to finish well. Terry Earwood finally beat it into my head that my feeling uncomfortable driving in the wet meant that I did not have car control skills. Not even the kind necessary for speed in the dry. Car control clinic is one of the cheapest Skippy offerings. I had to take THREE of them. And dry car control is another whole ballgame. The cues I get from the tires and the suspension loadings are completely different. The Skippy car is so hard to drive well that I finally realized that if I don't use car control to get the car to rotate and push on a nuance level, I can't get those last few tenths in the corner. And although getting within a couple of tenths of Revere in a corner is AWESOME, multiply it by every corner in a lap, say 14 x 0.2 = 2.8 sec off the pace, 2.8 x 12 laps = 36 seconds behind the leader at the checker under green flag conditions. With otherwise PERFECT driving, no wheels dropped, no missed apexes, no lockups or slides. (yeah, right, that's gonna happen)

Once I had some fundamentals, Lead-Follow with in-car radio was the single most valuable instructional tool for me. Only after I've learned the right line, the right sight pictures, and where and what inputs to apply, can I start thinking about speed.

After a L/F session, I know exactly what I am supposed to be doing on every meter of the track. Having the radio hookup is also essential for getting the most out of the session, in the sense of rapid correction of mistakes. I hate wasting time (=money) running laps unknowingly ingraining a mistake before coming back to the pits to find out I sucked in Turn 5 on every lap. Correction usually entails a coordinated application of inputs. While closely following, the instructor can see what my car is doing and coach me in the necessary changes while I suck (Dammit, Harsha, I told you this is a !#@$*! full throttle corner, FULL THROTTLE! ).

Although expensive up front, the extreme efficiency of learning it provides more than makes up for it. And one session is enough for me. Then I can go back to sucking on my own, but now I know why.

[chsutherland]

LF is the best way to go. Buying it by the tankful doesn't bother me. I am glad to have it, no matter what it cost. It was a deal before and remains so now. I haven't done any car control clinics. Do they really help?

[John Greist]

Agree completely with Dr. S's post (Harsha, please call me John).

I know Harsha's secret and will impart it glady for only $1,500 - he's charging Skippy prices.

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by chsutherland

I haven't done any car control clinics. Do they really help?

Yes. It was the thing that switched the light bulb on for me. Tons of seat time under instructor observation on skidpad and autocross. Learn to reliably control a skippy car on a wet skidpad and you will be firmly on the path to real speed in any car. Powerslide it and you will never fear the rain again.

On the other hand it is also the first step on the road to total ruin and permanent penury for those who don't have a company to sell...

Then again, you could just come out in the dirt with us, and get the same result for less money, just millions of horsepower more fun.

"Stewball was a race horse..."

[John Greist]

Craig,

Harsh's quite right. Car control is a useful teaching tool, particularly early in the process. Expect you're past that point, but it couldn't hurt.

Also expect the dirt car control clinic Sept 26th in Beaver Dam will be memorable, particularly if Harsha has dried out by then.

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by John Greist

Car control is a useful teaching tool, particularly early in the process. Expect you're past that point, but it couldn't hurt.

I don't know, John, I think it helps to revisit at an intermediate stage. I had a sort of epiphany at Mid-O this weekend (before the "weather" closed in) where I suddenly got the feel for going through the Keyhole by keeping it on the limit all the way around. It turned out to be my best corner on computer analysis and it required a very delicate modulation of brake pressure on a long, trailing, gently rotating entry transitioning seamlessly to maintenance throttle followed by a slow deliberate squeeze to full, all while trying to keep the back end from breaking loose in the least. That required every bit of car control I could muster, just on a very subtle level because the track was dry and the cornering speed relatively slow. Granted, there are not too many corners like that.

Also expect the dirt car control clinic Sept 26th in Beaver Dam will be memorable, particularly if Harsha has dried out by then.

based on recent experience, it might be more memorable (for my friends, anyway) if I re-soak

[John Greist]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

I don't know, John, I think it helps to revisit at an intermediate stage. I had a sort of epiphany at Mid-O this weekend (before the "weather" closed in) where I suddenly got the feel for going through the Keyhole by keeping it on the limit all the way around. It turned out to be my best corner on computer analysis and it required a very delicate modulation of brake pressure on a long, trailing, gently rotating entry transitioning seamlessly to maintenance throttle followed by a slow deliberate squeeze to full, all while trying to keep the back end from breaking loose in the least. That required every bit of car control I could muster, just on a very subtle level because the track was dry and the cornering speed relatively slow. Granted, there are not too many corners like that. based on recent experience, it might be more memorable (for my friends, anyway) if I re-soak

It's going to be hard to recreate and control the variables in the experiment you described last weekend. Were you titrated optimally by our several friends, or were they trying to kill you? Still, we know the worst side-effect is lack of efficacy and a 37.1 on top of a 37.2 demonstrates great efficacy. Would you have been faster or slower unmedicated or in the 49 car?

[chsutherland]

I email SB late friday to see if they had anymore spots for RA, if they do count me in for the dirt cars. How could i say no? Should be a good group too. Perhaps I could get a ride down there in the M5? If we are going to be at a dirt track, then someone needs to be intoxicated.

[John Greist]

We'll be coming from Madison to Beaver Dam, but will make sure you get in the the M5 during the weekend.

[Duc998M]

Harsha,

You still have spots open for the Dirt Fest Round Two? I will have to check with the wifey. She and her family are coming up for that week / race weekend.

Also, I am planning on sitting them in the stands at the bottom of turn 5. Would you be so kind as to let me pass you there once?

Thanks

Marc

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by Duc998M

Harsha,

You still have spots open for the Dirt Fest Round Two? I will have to check with the wifey. She and her family are coming up for that week / race weekend.

Also, I am planning on sitting them in the stands at the bottom of turn 5. Would you be so kind as to let me pass you there once?

Thanks
Marc

I do believe that the Open Wheel Racing School and Rent-A-Ride (yup, that's the official name-- that's why I love the dirtsters, it's down-home good clean family fun) will be able to run everyone who wants to go. Just need to know for sure by, say, middle of next week. It would be fantastic if you could join us.

As for the Turn 5 pass, I see the scenario working out this way: if I happen to qualify better than you, then you will have to muster all the self control you have and lift way out of the gas during my patented Asleep At The Switch starting style and actually tuck in behind me on the front straight into Turn One. I will understand if you don't want to carry 20 mph less than is possible into the first corner, I myself don't know how I do it. But if you can bring yourself to do that, my brain immediately shifts to Normal Mode on exit from the corner, and so it won't be too painful following me into Turn 3. Then voila, you are in position for the drafting pass into 5.

If, however, you ignore everything Gomez has ever told you and is going to tell you between now and then, you will probably get quicker, and you may outqualify me. In that case, I will be 3 or 4 seconds back by the time you guys make it to Turn 5. All I can say is that once I catch you, if you can hang on for a lap, I'll be happy not to block you going into 5 at least once.

Another possibility is for me to punt you off in 5. Although we drivers are under the sad delusion that our loved ones are actually aware of what's happening on the track, I'm sorry to be the one to tell you that they really don't get the passing for position thing. On top of that, it all happens too fast for them to figure out who's passing who. All they really understand is winning and wiping out. And since winning probably is not in the cards for either of us, if I get behind you I could arrange a really spectacular wipeout at the apex right in front of them. All it would take is some subtle, low-speed sidewall-to-sidewall contact during trailbrake. Nothing dangerous. You go around, gesture at me wildly, wait until all the other cars have dodged you (even more excitement for spectators) and then rejoin. No harm no foul. If you stay on the tarmac and I'm good enough, we won't even have to pit. On the other hand, if you go into the gravel, then that's REALLY exciting for nonracers, cause they get to see all the rescue vehicles come flying in and haul you out, they get to see the pace car again, and a free parade lap. And you're sitting there in front of them for 5 or 6 minutes. No searching frantically for your helmet or car number in the pack.

Let me know how I can be of service.

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by chsutherland

I email SB late friday to see if they had anymore spots for RA, if they do count me in for the dirt cars. How could i say no? Should be a good group too. Perhaps I could get a ride down there in the M5? If we are going to be at a dirt track, then someone needs to be intoxicated.

Craig, just let me know. See first paragraph of above post. As far as getting a ride, Randy will probably pull out of Elkhart Lake with his haulers about 1:30 pm. He has room for us in his toterhome, and I plan to ride with him, particluarly for the reason you mention.

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by John Greist

It's going to be hard to recreate and control the variables in the experiment you described last weekend. Were you titrated optimally by our several friends, or were they trying to kill you? Still, we know the worst side-effect is lack of efficacy and a 37.1 on top of a 37.2 demonstrates great efficacy. Would you have been faster or slower unmedicated or in the 49 car?

I have to take all the blame this time--or at least the voices in my head do ("hubris" according to Don V.) -- but I do think I actually impressed some people, Matt Franc for example. For the record, I do believe I would have been faster longer in an unmedicated state. I can make no further comments about the 49 car.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by John Greist

.... Still, we know the worst side-effect is lack of efficacy and a 37.1 on top of a 37.2 demonstrates great efficacy?

are thos B.A.C.'s?

[John Greist]

Originally Posted by cdh

are thos B.A.C.'s?

Of a kind we all know or wish for.

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by cdh

are thos B.A.C.'s?

A very pretty, cleverly-designed, user-friendly, witty site, but TOTALLY USELESS for my purposes. I can see Campus Police hasn't changed one bit. They may wear S.W.A.T. uniforms these days, but they remain pitifully out of touch with the actual binge drinking behavior of humans. Had I, at 1:00 a.m. Friday night, had enough fine motor coordination and visual processing ability to consult this site, I would not have been able to obtain the data required to answer the essential question of the moment. And having obtained no answer, I still would have had to dodge Lexington OH's finest on my way to the on-ramp ("...and you could hear me screaming a mile away as I was headed out to the door...Hey! Gimme three steps, gimme three steps mister, gimme three steps towards the door...")

Number of Drinks: tops out at 8 = TOTALLY INADEQUATE
What Are You Drinking (which is actually what Kasey asked me when he saw the martini): has only TWO of the spirits ingested that evening = TOTALLY INADEQUATE
How Many Hours Have You Been Drinking: tops out at 5 = TOTALLY INADEQUATE

.22% = HA! I LAUGH IN YOUR FACE! = TOTALLY INADEQUATE

[cdh]

you are preaching to the choir here.........well, when I was still in the choir that is - here's another avatar selection for you.....and excuse my relentless hijacking lately - this was about lead - swallow, er-follow..........sorry all

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by cdh

here's another avatar selection for you.....

So.....corporate and DOT-ish. So very uncharacteristically uncreative. For once, Doug, you disappoint me.

Oh, and no, ain't gonna be no choir for the Mahajanapadas Kid. One and done. Cameo appearance. I've already had to hear it from JP.

Besides, I f----d up a perfectly expensive double race weekend. On a fixed income.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

So.....corporate and DOT-ish. So very uncharacteristically uncreative. For once, Doug, you disappoint me.

eh, not my work, scroll to bottom of BAC page
DOT-ish =

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by cdh

eh, not my work, scroll to bottom of BAC page

reminds me of the voiceovers to those driver's ed movies in high school

[chsutherland]

In addition to the wonderful guy and gals at Mr. Chicken, who have made our racing possible with their generous series sponsorship. I would like to add "Harsha's House of Drinking" to the sponsorship program. All it needs is a catchy phrase like Mr. Chicken has.

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by chsutherland

In addition to the wonderful guy and gals at Mr. Chicken, who have made our racing possible with their generous series sponsorship. I would like to add "Harsha's House of Drinking" to the sponsorship program. All it needs is a catchy phrase like Mr. Chicken has.

Since such an establishment does not exist, I doubt the sponsorship idea you propose would be successful. And way too crass, lacking the finesse and elegance I epitomize. That was not MD2020 that was being passed around. No, they were some of the most traditional and carefully aged of the spirits available. Stevie D's contributions were meticulously handcrafted of the finest ingredients. Such a program would not do justice to the time-honored tradition of toasting the courage necessary for our dangerous game. A better idea would be to seek out the local racing watering holes for their support-- Siebken's, Seneca Lodge, Billy's Tap Room and Grill-- places oozing with the hangovers and history of brave and foolhardy souls, ourselves included. We are part of an honorable tradition, let's celebrate that.

And with that, I propose we put this VERY DEAD HORSE to rest, and return to the discussion of more relevant topics.

[John Greist]

Originally Posted by Slowhands
And with that, I propose we put this [COLOR=black

VERY DEAD HORSE[/COLOR] to rest, and return to the discussion of more relevant topics.

Whipping dead horses is TJR's forte.

Following Craig's suggestion, I offer, again, what will always be for me, Harsha's indelible aphorism: Pity the poor person without a hangover - that's the best they'll feel all day.

If that won't serve, Walt's shorter mantra might: Race an hour, sleep an hour. It's a bit less obvious, but aficionados will understand.

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by John Greist

Following Craig's suggestion, I offer, again, what will always be for me, Harsha's indelible aphorism: Pity the poor person without a hangover - that's the best they'll feel all day.

Not bad, John, even worthy of epigram status, a la Oscar Wilde; but too literate, lacking the pithiness and flow required for the PA-voice-from-above, and I doubt NickNick could get through it without stumbling.

If that won't serve, Walt's shorter mantra might: Race an hour, sleep an hour. It's a bit less obvious, but aficionados will understand.

I think that's got it. To the point, from a legendary source, with a racing heritage. Easy to announce.

And now, keeping the original intentions of this thread in mind, I am going to LEAD you all out of the wilderness, this being the END OF THIS DETOUR for me-- the wise among you would be well-served to FOLLOW.

Or else I'm going to sic Sy on all you Philistines, and we all know he doesn't like being awakened unnecessarily.

[WatertownNewbie]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

Besides, I f----d up a perfectly expensive double race weekend. On a fixed income.

Is this a new form of crash damage?

[John Greist]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

And now, keeping the original intentions of this thread in mind, I am going to LEAD you all out of the wilderness, this being the END OF THIS DETOUR for me-- the wise among you would be well-served to FOLLOW.

Glad to followyour lead out of this wilderness, though the only time I've heard the inimitable Nick Nicholson tongue-tied was when you asked him to redress a personal grievance via a procurement that would have led to serious prison time - absolutely hilarious at the time and he was silent for minutes, no mean feat.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by John Greist

Whipping dead horses is TJR's forte.

to crack the whip one final time on this subject, in going through all the video from this season, I came across this rather contradictory quote from the Sen Meister at Trembling Mountain..before his Mid-Oh my God adventure

sen-a meister - 22 sec.
(shown with permission of the sen man)
.

[John Greist]

Nicely done Doug. Good to apply the lash again before Harsha's hide has healed.

Your sense of humor is restored, even extolled.

[Slowhands]

All I have to say is that the exploitation of youthfully exuberant indiscretion for the sake of tabloid sensationalism is another symptom of our society's descent into selfrighteous selfabsorbtion. Dredging up archaic images just to generate a little more traffic through the site...can't a guy be allowed to grow, to change?

I had no idea there was a camera rolling. Besides he told me it would be tastefully done and I could keep my clothes on. And I absolutely, categorically, did not inhale.

[chsutherland]

Perhaps if your avatar weren't the Jager bus you would have a leg to stand on. I still like Harsha's House of Drinking.

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by chsutherland

Perhaps if your avatar weren't the Jager bus you would have a leg to stand on. I still like Harsha's House of Drinking.

I shudder to think what you would name your escort service...

[chsutherland]

You mean named...I gotta pay for all this somehow. Simple names work best, why confuse the patron.

[Duc998M]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

All I have to say is that the exploitation of youthfully exuberant indiscretion for the sake of tabloid sensationalism is another symptom of our society's descent into selfrighteous selfabsorbtion.

Yeah, what he said.

Nice quote. Clearly you were still drunk.

Thank you it brighten my day that was going poorly.

Marc

PS. Craig, feel free to have one of your "escorts" call my cell

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by Duc998M

Yeah, what he said.
Nice quote. Clearly you were still drunk.

Hey, didja like all the S-words I threw in there? Say it 3 times fast. Oh okay, say it once real slow-like.

PS. Craig, feel free to have one of your "escorts" call my cell

I hope his escorts are younger than his cars

Marc, I was admiring your avatar, and I have to say your technique looks quite superb. In fact, I have a hard time telling you and Kenny Roberts (below) apart. Except for one fact. His eyes are clearly up, looking through the turn. Yours, on the other hand seem to be focused uh, lower. Knowing from personal experience that your cornering technique is flawless, it got me to wondering what you were looking at. Panda accident?

[Duc998M]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

Hey, didja like all the S-words I threw in there? Say it 3 times fast. Oh okay, say it once real slow-like.

I hope his escorts are younger than his cars

Marc, I was admiring your avatar, and I have to say your technique looks quite superb. In fact, I have a hard time telling you and Kenny Roberts (below) apart. Except for one fact. His eyes are clearly up, looking through the turn. Yours, on the other hand seem to be focused uh, lower. Knowing from personal experience that your cornering technique is flawless, it got me to wondering what you were looking at. Panda accident?

You are quite correct. A huge Panda accident. Heck, just look at the expression on the Panda that I am riding. He knows something bad is about to happen.

Marc

[cdh]

clearly I must dig up a few more clips - soooooo LOL from these posts.

Sorry for my lack of multisyllabic words Dr Sen-a.....dying here

did someone say Lead-Follow???

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by Duc998M

He knows something bad is about to happen.

so THAT'S what they mean by "riding the panda!"

(actually, his expression suggests "it" may have already happened. a few times. perhaps on a regular basis.)