Skippy Prototype Car ('05-'07): Skippy Components Survey #8 of 8 - COST

[chsutherland]

I heard Jim Pace say one time " there isn't a lot, that 20 or 25 minutes of track time won't fix" I couldn't agree more. I remember being impressed with the amount of seat time for the ADV2day. I would pay more if i got to be in the car more.

[Tim George Jr]

Yup...I would pay more for more seat time per race...duh!! I think that strategy is one thing that we don't really get to work on in Skip Barber...unless there is a bunch of cautions!

[rgreist]

I'm not sure we had 100 driver weekends, but we sure had 80 driver weekends frequently with the school cars. And these were not combined East-Midwest weekends. Skippy repeatedly had to turn people away at Road America and other Midwest race weekends.

Perhaps Andy's point -- this would be my point -- is that the "zoominess" of the car isn't the only, or even most important, factor to attract drivers to the series.

Originally Posted by dalyduo

Andy,

When was the last 100 driver weekend you remember and what don't you get?

[dalyduo]

I would agree whole heartedly Revere. Having not been around during those times I'd love to hear, from you and others who were around then, what made the racing so good and highly sought after? What, in your view, has changed so much?

Originally Posted by rgreist

I'm not sure we had 100 driver weekends, but we sure had 80 driver weekends frequently with the school cars. And these were not combined East-Midwest weekends. Skippy repeatedly had to turn people away at Road America and other Midwest race weekends.

Perhaps Andy's point -- this would be my point -- is that the "zoominess" of the car isn't the only, or even most important, factor to attract drivers to the series.

[GEORGE]

The zoominess and the sexiness have very little to with my interest in the series.
The drivability, feling of speed, and general feeling of competition will keep me in the car.
The people will keep me coming back, both instructors and participants.

[Rebekah]

In reference to what someone said about cameras being standard for damage determination, four-offs, etc... while others may not agree, I firmly disagree with the idea that race calls should be determined based on camera footage after the fact. In all professional sports, the referees (or in our case corner workers and coaches) make calls based on what they see. I can understand the usefulness of cameras partially in determining cost/fault, but think that failing to recognize a flag/call after it has been made contributes to an unsafe racing environment. I think we can all agree that safety is the number one priority, and the call can be made for "significant loss of control" which could occur whether or not you actually took all four wheels off the track. just my $0.02.

[Tim George Jr]

Yes safety is always the priority in racing. I was not suggesting that what is captured on camera be used to be the end all be all of any situation, or that ignoring a black flag is okay. However, I do feel that they could be useful in determining crash damage fault % and four offs- not only in a race, but in practice/qualifying as well. I have gotten the short end of the stick in many cases, which is partially why I suggested this. Skippy racing has its own set of rules, especially in the regional series that are separate from any form of professional racing. For example, a driver can loose control, not go four off, almost cause an accident while causing another driver to go off, and still not be required to pit. However, that same driver can track out a little too far with nobody near him/her, put four off without loosing control, and then be required to pit. At the same time, in some professional sports, footage is reviewed to assist in making a final call. Why not in Skippy cars then? If all cars had cameras, not only would enforcing decisions be easier, but also each driver would have an equal opportunity to learn from their footage. Only drivers who want the footage would purchase it, otherwise there would be no additional charge. It would never be possible to base 100% of any call on video footage, but it could in fact help clarify certain situations that may or may not arise.

[John Greist]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

I would agree whole heartedly Revere. Having not been around during those times I'd love to hear, from you and others who were around then, what made the racing so good and highly sought after? What, in your view, has changed so much?

Pat,

Sorry to be late responding - lost track of thread growth onto a second page.

Revere's right, we had repeated 80 person midwest weekends with drivers turned away. It was school cars, 5 groups, gridding based on season average points, so fast folk at the front, but always people nearby at about the same pace. At the final weekend, the top 15 raced in the same group - an honor in its own right. The Championship-Sportsman format let's people stand on a podium sooner, but moving up through the field with the old format was more challenging and therefore more satisfying.

Cars were more equal because of better drafting and races were longer. We didn't seem to run out of cars, plenty for extra practice and finished race days in time for memorials. Perhaps because there was only one car and more of them, it was easier to maintain the fleet. The only special equalizing Skippy did for us was to put Revere and me in the same car in different groups so he couldn't complain I had a better car . They tried not to put us in the same group after I'd passed him for the lead and he ran into me!

Cost was comparatively lower so more could afford to race. And with more people racing, though hard to believe, it was even more fun than now.

[rf360m]

I think that the pre-championship/sportsman format was very unfair and biased towards those people who had the money to race more often. If you could not afford to do more than one or two race weekends you had basically no chance of ever finishing on the podium. I did several races in which I couldn't keep up with the fast guys, but was ahead of the slower guys, so basically after the first lap it was a lapping day for me. That's not that much fun. With the current division of groups I have much more exciting races because I am with more drivers who are in my speed and experience range. I think the current race setup is extremely fun and rewarding for both those people who are lucky enough to have the money to race an entire season, and for those who do not. I would hate to see it change.

[dalyduo]

I've heard Russel's argument from others and would have to agree that the current configuration is more fun for the newbies and half-season sportsmen like myself. Recent increases in the ranks have usually produced at least 2 sportsman groups with one for newbies and the other for more experienced sportsman (Like the old "Expert" group). We should also give credit to the race directors who do a great job of group selection.

I can see where working your way up through the old system would be very satisfying but can also see the perpetual frustration if you aren't racing enough to challenge the full season guys.

[John Greist]

As Russell, I raced only occasionally when starting but found plenty of close competition every year under the old format. I liked learning from better racers just ahead as I gradually moved up. The first time I almost stayed with Paul Arnold in 1996, is an indelible memory.

Actually, if you went well in occasional races, your high point average earned you a high starting position on the grid, often ahead of fast folk who'd done time in 4 off and contact checks. Dealing with them as they tried to come forward was also instructive.

In 2006, there were only 10 of 119 who did all Eastern Series races (4 Championship, 6 Sportsman); for Midwest it was 8 of 83 (3 Championship, 5 Sportsman [though Stirling Brinner did them all through MO]). Most folk have always been occasional runners. The old and new formats are different. Is one better? Depends on perspective and personality.

[dalyduo]

Agreed John, all good points. The case can be made for both systems...

Guess this has gone far enough and we should turn it back to the cost of the new car. Enjoyed the detour

Originally Posted by John Greist

The old and new formats are different. Is one better? Depends on perspective and personality.

[John Greist]

Right. Sorry for the digression.

[dalyduo]

Totally my bad John, as the question I posed on post #54, in retrospect, should have been the start of a new thread.

Originally Posted by John Greist

Right. Sorry for the digression.

[OLDMAN]

The current cost of racing a Skippy car is $3,900 per weekend. This includes one practice sessions. Lead/follow, computer car, etc is extra. That works out to about $30 dollars per minute on the track, this assumes no crach damage. If you have even a minor get together with a tire barrier and it's easily $70 per minute.

Now before Sy and the rest of you start the usual CB stuff let me finish. My usual racing season consists of two race weekends. I put aside about $10,000 to cover racing expenses, travel and lodging. If during the first weekend I bend the car my season is over. I know to many of you this is not big money, to me, and I assume others, it is. The cost of racing (competively) has finally gotten too high. Even in the Sportsman group one practice is not enough. Guys I have to compete with routinely arrive on Tuesday and Wednesday to do lapping and/or lead/follow sessions. This requires another $3,000 per weekend. It's just become too expensive to be competitive.

So for 2007 (for the first time in 10 years) the OLDMAN will not be racing. He will however be going to Las Vegas, Aspen, the Grand Canyon and Italy. In the end it will be less expensive than 4 hours on the track. My wife is very happy!

As I have in the past, I continue to predict that the day is coming when a race weekend will consist of 3 racers each paying $150,000 to compete.


OLDMAN

[dalyduo]

Skip Barber has always been known as the best open wheel starter series, bang for the buck, on the planet. The instructors, the staff, the instruction, the safety, the cars (though ready for an upgrade) and the tracks have been combined in a racing package that, for decades, no one has come close to matching.

Skip Barber has always been the place where cars are equal and hard work and driving talent are more highly valued and rewarded than deep pockets. That's the schools legacy. This year’s National winner is a good example of that. It doesn’t mean you can’t give yourself an edge by buying more instruction and seat time, but the instructors, more than anyone, love helping young and old talent find their way through the field by learning the honest to god craft of racing, not by writing a bigger check.

While there will always be a core of well heeled customers who survive any downturn in the economy there aren't enough of those to keep the company alive in tough times if it is not already providing a great product at a fair price across the board.

The much larger numbers of people who run through the various driving, racing school and corporate programs but never get near the race series have to be (in my humble opinion) the profit centers for Skippy. Those programs require far fewer resources to run but are fed off the success, prestige and history of the race series that has been basic training to an impressive list of drivers in all areas of pro racing for decades. It means something that the guys that taught Juan Pablo Montoya and Marco Andretti how to race are the same guys giving the rest of us feedback when we’re on track.

From a marketing standpoint, the Skippy race series ladder has always been the good will goose that lays the golden egg for all the training programs. No one else has the depth that Skip Barber has. If you kill off the racing program by lowering standards, diluting competition or pricing it out of the average enthusiasts market you lose the one piece of the puzzle that sets Skip Barber apart from everyone else.

With a healthy, happy, highly populated, affordable racing program that feeds talent to higher pro series and gives middle-aged through grand-master sportsmen the times of their lives, you have the keys to the racing kingdom that everyone else wants. This looming new alliance with Mazda holds great potential to re-establish the racing ladder that was severed when the pro series went away.

The lower race series should be nurtured as the candy that keeps feeding the teaching profit centers and elite pro ranks of the future.

It’s a delicate balance. Don’t screw it up.

[notSoFast54]

1. Priorities
Safer
Easier to Drive
Easier to Equalize
Quicker adjustments (pedals)
More comfortable
New features

2. Not really any more … I can barely afford what I do now.

3. Data acquisition would be nice, but low cost is most important to me.

4. If a no-frills car can be more forgiving around the limit or provide more feedback, that would be my ideal. I like the sequential shifter for ease.

5. I’m hoping the basic car will provide the improvements I would like so I probably wouldn’t pay much for frills.

6. I’m limited by budget.

7. I’m not a mechanical expert, but reasonable cost parts, design to minimize damage costs, perhaps a penalty box approach after several crash damages. In other words, keep the cost down by not rebuilding the cars all the time.

[Tim George Jr]

I feel that no matter what anyone WANTS, Skip Barber will inevitably charge a bit more per weekend during the introduction of the new car. I have talked with some people in Skip Barber management, and the consensus seems to be that the new cars will EVENTUALLY be cheaper to maintain than the R/T 2000...but we must realize that all new tubs must first be made, engines mounted, etc. I project that the new cars will not be as cheap as the R/T to maintain until about two years; possibly then will the new parts be cheaper to replace than those on the R/T, due to wear/tear and accidents. It is safe to say that carbon fiber is more expensive to replace than fiberglass.

The “frills” of the car (i.e. data acquisition, camera, adjustments, etc.) can be kept to a minimum and I bet the price would not drop that much more per weekend. Skip Barber has spent a lot (anyone know how much) money on developing and testing these two new prototype Skippy cars. Hopefully, they have picked the more economical of the two. The best selling point for Skip Barber is that a driver gets the most seat time for the dollar (i.e. $30-$70 per min., depending on how you drive)!

This R & D for the new cars must be paid for somehow….I wonder who pays for all this stuff? Ahhh…the racers pay! However, the price just can’t be too much more than the current weekends, given that the reason people go to Skip Barber in the first place is to enjoy and get better at a passion we all have: racing.

[John Greist]

Lots of good thinking Pat. Thanks.