Skippy Prototype Car ('05-'07): New Skippy Car Components Survey #1 of 8: WINGS

[Gerardo]

Sy and I are starting a new series of threads that will offer you a place to give your feedback and ideas for several key components of the new Skippy car. Each topic/thread will last approximately one week, and will be closed out so the next one can commence. Neither Sy nor I are directly involved with the new car's development, but we do know the powers that be are reading what you have to say. We will start this week with Wings.

As with previous solicitations for feedback, lets keep a nice balance of positive and negative comments. It's okay to point out shortcomings in our existing wings, but please also offer ideas to make improvements.

I'll list some suggested questions. Answer as you wish and add your own comments as well.

Thanks again!

2007 Skippy Car - Wings

1. Does the new car need wings for a 3-Day School?
2. Does the new car need wings for Advance Activities (Lapping, ADV 2-Day)
3. Does the new car need wings for the Regional Race Series?
4. Does the new car need wings for the MASTERS National Championship?
5. Does the new car need wings for the regular Skip Barber National Championship?
6. For each of the above activities, if "Yes", what level of downforce is appropriate in general terms, such as Light, Medium, Heavy downforce?
7. Should the wing angles be adjustable by customer request at any of the above activities? If so, which series should be adjustable?
8. Any other comments?

This thread will be closed to further replies just before midnight on Sunday, October 1st. The next topic will then be introduced. So please get your feedback in ASAP.

[L8Apex]

1. Does the new car need wings for a 3-Day School? IMO, it's not necessary, but I sure would have liked to have them. The car felt very light on the front straight at Laguna.
2. Does the new car need wings for Advance Activities (Lapping, ADV 2-Day) Yes.
3. Does the new car need wings for the Regional Race Series? Yes.
4. Does the new car need wings for the MASTERS National Championship? Yes.
5. Does the new car need wings for the regular Skip Barber National Championship? Yes.
6. For each of the above activities, if "Yes", what level of downforce is appropriate in general terms, such as Light, Medium, Heavy downforce? For numbers one, two, and three, I think the downforce should be medium, or whatever is considered normal.
7. Should the wing angles be adjustable by customer request at any of the above activities? If so, which series should be adjustable? For numbers four and five, I think the wings should be adjustable at the customer's request. I believe it would add an interesting dynamic to the national races. If not adjustable, I think the downforce should at least be higher than that of numbers one, two, and three.
8. Any other comments? Yes... I don't really know much about the specific design of the wings on the R/T2000, nor have I had considerable experience in these cars. So take my opinions with a grain of salt.

[dlippert]

1. No for the school
2. Yes for advanced/lapping
3. Yes for all of the regional/masters'/national race series
5. Perhaps have testers decide downforce for each regional venue and advise customers of what was done & why
4. Adjustable at customer request for Masters and National series

[999]

Who cares? As long as it looks cool!

[TomBobN20]

I believe the new Skippy Car does need wings if for no other reason than to create a car that will attract more racers. There are a lot of racing schools to choose from out there so I think it is an important marketing technique to have a car that appears modern and to be a good learning tool applicable to more advanced series. I imagine some hotshot karter trying to decide his next move. I guarantee the appearance of the car effects his decision. Ya gotta have a wing. Since they are going to be on the car they might as well be adjustable to various levels of downforce. The older the driver, the more the downforce. Okay, the last part is a stretch but we need all the help we can get.

[Duncan]

Originally Posted by TomBobN20

The older the driver, the more the downforce. Okay, the last part is a stretch but we need all the help we can get.

Maybe the Grand-Grand-Masters should have tunnels for their cars

[dlippert]

The things children say; you gotta love 'em.

[racerlarry]

I'm with Dick...

[videoracer.com]

If it probably possible to design an aesthetically pleasing and technologically more advanced and therefore "cool" race car that does not have wings. Resources could then be put to better use, for example data collection for each car. This may end up being a more attractive package for potential and existing customers.

Adjustable and effective wings, as an option, could be used in the National series or for "Tuning clinics".

[gmg321]

I agree with Duncan #9 and dalyduo #10.

[birkmama]

1. Does the new car need wings for a 3-Day School?

No, I do not think so.
2. Does the new car need wings for Advance Activities (Lapping, ADV 2-Day)

No, neither
3. Does the new car need wings for the Regional Race Series?

Nope.
4. Does the new car need wings for the MASTERS National Championship?

Possibly
5. Does the new car need wings for the regular Skip Barber National Championship?

Yes
6. For each of the above activities, if "Yes", what level of downforce is appropriate in general terms, such as Light, Medium, Heavy downforce?

Depending on track I would vote.
7. Should the wing angles be adjustable by customer request at any of the above activities? If so, which series should be adjustable?

No
8. Any other comments?

Yes.
I would go back one step and ask, which cornering forces should be offered in each of the above mentioned activities. For me, the differences in cornering speed between the school car and the RT2000 based on downforce are not measurable. As I said, for me. I never had a sense of real downforce in the RT, and that was fine. Looking at the spread of driving skills in the regional series I do not see the necessity to increase cornering speeds over and above the given level. Consequently none of the preparatory activities for the regionals need aero.

I do agree that they look cool and lend authenticity to the racing activities, but so far at least their main impact on my racing activities has been increased crash damage,

A great attribute of the regional series is that it is a spec race, no adjustments, random cars and only the person behind the wheel matters. In so far I would - if wings were part of the package - recommend default settings.

My view on both of the national series is a bit different. The nationals are more targeted to racers that seek additional more professional racing. Be that in the series or in their future plans. My impression is that a large percentage of national racers move on and up, so for them it would a good additional element of learning about the best use of an additional technology. For the masters this is not quite so true, but it would equally be a nice piece of differentiation and add novelty for the more seasoned racers. For the nationals I would think wing adjustments are a good thing, for the masters less so. This has also to do with the logistical aspects, ie that regionals and national masters arte sharing a car fleet, while the nationals don't, if i remember correctly.

What I would like would be a class, an advanced activity where interested racers could develop setup skills and have a chance to understand how different settings effect their laptime. If aero was included in this, I believe it would be attractive.

[Jisu Kim]

I think Martin most precisely hit the nail on the head regarding all categories. I've only had several experiences driving with lots of wing in a 96 Formula 3 car. What I remember is ending up in the gravel in a high-speed corner after approaching another car too closely. There was a great deal to learn in controlling the attitude and position of the car when following closely in order to keep air over wings. If following closely doesn't have much impact, then the wings are just potential crash damage. As far as marketing appeal, I would be very interested to know if there is concrete evidence that the wings add appeal to the schools or series outside of the Nationals.

[jdr922]

I don't believe the school cars need wings however I do believe the race series cars should have them. The looks of the cars generate interest from new divers as well as the technical aspects young drivers who are interested in moving up the racing ladder will need to use and take advantage of. Experienced drivers with no aspirations of moving up the ladder can enjoy the aero contributions they provide assuming they do so. I am not certain if I like the idea of adjustable wings for the sportsman series as the equality of the cars performance is compromised therefore possibly and I offer possibly making it too advanced for those participating in the Sportsmans groups. No offense meant as I am one myself and assume (there I go) that many are not as technically advanced as others related to wing and downforce adjustments. But it would be fun to learn! Ok...make em adjustable (just give me the quickest car!)

[Pork Chop Willie]

Who cares? As long as it looks cool!

[dalyduo]

Some educational input from an engineer and/or experienced instructor/tester might be helpful at this point to give us a better sense of how much difference the wings actually make given the power and speeds we operate at. (The prototype has been tested with the current Dodge motor but in all likelyhood the new car will have a different motor, with more easily and accurately adjustable output and possibly more available horsepower.)

With the relative low horsepower run in every current series it would seem the performance cost of running a high downforce setup might be higher than the aero benefit.

I've never heard anyone say the R/T2000 wings do more than provide a minor bit of downforce and a major source of eye candy for the brochure.

Would love to hear Jason, RB, Jim Pace and Gerardo weigh in on this one.

[OLDMAN]

Get rid of the wings! All they do is add to my crash damage bill. The real truth of the matter is, they are all sizzle and no steak (or as we say in Texas, all hat and no cattle).

I have flagged more than one race in the rain, and I can tell you from the lack of a rooster tail that they offer no downforce.

OLDMAN

[Susan Addison]

Originally Posted by Pat Daly

"With the relative low horsepower run in every current series it would seem the performance cost of running a high downforce setup might be higher than the aero benefit.

I've never heard anyone say the R/T2000 wings do more than provide a minor bit of downforce and a major source of eye candy for the brochure."

Agreed Pat,

I would really like to see some real wings, like the ones on the Formula SCCA, not the eye candy ones currently run. The rest I agree with Dick L. Surprise Dick!

[Big Sexy]

I can't figure out why we still have wings on any race car that isn't running on dirt. They are obsolete. Once every car in the feild has them they become pointless. That happened in 1968. The only benefit that have is that they look zoomy in some cases.

[Doc Racer]

I'd be interested in learning as much as possible about set-up, and how different downforce settings might work with one's own inherent driving style and capabilities. I like the idea of having that be available both in classes and in competitive events.

For me, its the other students and racers and the caliber and character of the instructors that continues to be a strong attractor to Skip Barber. Early inquiries into other schools gave the impression that the complete package, and positive, friendly environment just wasn't that widely available.

Finally, to me, the coolest looking racecar is the one i'm about to strap into!

[Mopar92]

Originally Posted by Big Sexy

I can't figure out why we still have wings on any race car that isn't running on dirt. They are obsolete. Once every car in the feild has them they become pointless. That happened in 1968. The only benefit that have is that they look zoomy in some cases.

Brilliant point, and why did we do away with Bias Ply tires with the new technology? Sideways was more fun to drive and the fans liked it better. I guess the fact of the matter is, we have wings to make the cars faster. And now that they are here... it is a marketing tool for SBRS...

[cdh]

this should help - the zoomier anteater

[Mopar92]

I cant tell if that is RB, or the test car without wings...

[OLDMAN]

The company store price of the wings is about $2,000. They provide lots of income for SPRS. They don't, however, add $2,000 worth of enjoyment to my race weekend.

Let's see, should I bend the rear wing this weekend or ski in Aspen for a week?

OLDMAN

[999]

Originally Posted by Big Sexy

I can't figure out why we still have wings on any race car that isn't running on dirt. They are obsolete. Once every car in the feild has them they become pointless. That happened in 1968. The only benefit that have is that they look zoomy in some cases.

Which brings me back to my point...


Who cares? As long as it looks cool!

[LimeRockRacer]

I see why our series has threatened future...43 posts on whether we should have wings or no wings to make the series more fun, more attractive and more whatever. I say bring on the Umbrella Girls! That will fix everything!

[Carl Lopez]

I always thought that a $500 daily fee that absolved the driver who created no crash damage during the course of the day, but rewarded him with a 20-25 year old female assistant, for the balance of the weekend. Would go a long way toward everyone having a terriffic weekend in the country. I'd give up the driving and go for the weekend with the umbrella! Great explanation for the folks at home..."went racing..it was stressful but I did get a trophy",

[dalyduo]

Heck Carl, We could just blow our racing budgets in Vegas each weekend instead of the one race weekend that really goes there! Of course then you're talking about real life crash damage like ruined family lives and massive debts... Oh... Come to think of it... Not that different from racing!

Originally Posted by Carl Lopez

I always thought that a $500 daily fee that absolved the driver who created no crash damage during the course of the day, but rewarded him with a 20-25 year old female assistant, for the balance of the weekend. Would go a long way toward everyone having a terriffic weekend in the country. I'd give up the driving and go for the weekend with the umbrella! Great explanation for the folks at home..."went racing..it was stressful but I did get a trophy",

[dalyduo]

The point of this thread was to kick around the subject of wings on the new car and on that count the bell has been pretty well rung. (And don't stop now if you've more to add... The gates will be open through Sunday October 1st).

Our thought provoking ideas have ranged from a paraphrased "we don't need 'em" to "Got to have 'em 'cause they look bitchin'! With some pretty well informed comment and opinion in between.

This is a great start and good use of this site. The gates will open on a different aspect of the new car next week and we invite everyone back to weigh in then too.

Tip of the cap to Sy and Gerardo for cooking this up.