To Sportsman or Not To Sportsman

[cdh]

Originally Posted by B-Line

....It would seem that TJR has a much more vocal CHAMPIONSHIP group as the Sportsman group don't spend as much time lurking the board....

Actually the stats show the opposite, there is more TJR participation from Sportsman drivers (at least prior to this season).

[Jim Pace]

I so loved the old system when the fastest 9-15 drivers at the track were the ones on the podium and those spots were earned! If one stayed for the season the last two weekends (when the top group raced each other) were times of opportunity and podium spots for the next level were welcomed with overall excitement. Those guys earned that spot by sticking to it and continuing to improve. Many of the best Skippy memories were from first time winners on those weekends!

It may be impossible to put the egg back into the shell...

The guys we are not hearing from are the 5th-15th overall that would be winning races in the old system. Currently those guys don't have a chance at a podium but the 15th-20th guys are "winnning" Sportsman races.

Not an easy issue to solve nor implement and certainly no way to make everyone happy but w/ equal cars the fastest guys should be "winning"!

My 2 cents...thanks for reading.
JP

[jp56]

It’s great you guys are all communicating what you want. Todd is a great guy and he’s listening to you all. Obliviously he can’t make everyone happy, but not for the lack of trying. I just hope it does get to the point you all have to show up with your lawyers to interpret the rules.
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Personally, I prefer the old way. No split groups and everyone races together. I was the slowest guy my first year. It was frustrating for a while. Some of my beginning races felt like a lapping day while being lapped. Slowly I learned that if I tucked in behind a fast guy for a turn or two, I’d learn something. Hey, free lead-follow. I could also see how good or bad as I was compared to the best. Sometimes too I had good racing with other guys at the back of the pack. A few years ago, Mark Patterson and I would jump in a Kiddie National Race and get our butts kicked. No separate points at that time for Masters. We ran under the same points as the kids. We could only get a trophy if we beat them. We never did, but we had a ball, learned a lot and met some neat kids who are adults and friends now. That is just my opinion.

I am curious as to why anyone would desire to stay in the Sportsman Group if they are getting quicker. Some of the guys I see racing in the Sportsman groups should be in the Championship group. This is obvious to many and that is why this whole discussion probably started. Is it about trophies? Would you rather have a trophy in the Sportsman group or a fifth place in the Championship group racing with the best guys? Perhaps getting rid of the Sportsman Championship points would help that.

If it’s all about close racing, I can understand that. Obviously with two groups the lap times would be closer and there would be more people to race with. If you’re getting quicker and finishing well in the Sportsman Group, it’s time to move up. I think many of you are better than you think you are.

At the end of the day it’s all about making the customer happy. Without the customer SBRS would be nothing. Todd’s a great listener and I am sure will do his best trying to satisfy all the factions.

[John Greist]

Great thinking from JPs! First, the younger (Pace):

It may be impossible to put the egg back into the shell...

The guys we are not hearing from are the 5th-15th overall that would be winning races in the old system. Currently those guys don't have a chance at a podium but the 15th-20th guys are "winnning" Sportsman races.

Not an easy issue to solve nor implement and certainly no way to make everyone happy but w/ equal cars the fastest guys should be "winning"!

Then the elder (Pew):

Personally, I prefer the old way. No split groups and everyone races together. I was the slowest guy my first year. It was frustrating for a while. Some of my beginning races felt like a lapping day while being lapped. Slowly I learned that if I tucked in behind a fast guy for a turn or two, I’d learn something. Hey, free lead-follow. I could also see how good or bad as I was compared to the best. Sometimes too I had good racing with other guys at the back of the pack.

If it’s all about close racing, I can understand that. Obviously with two groups the lap times would be closer and there would be more people to race with. If you’re getting quicker and finishing well in the Sportsman Group, it’s time to move up. I think many of you are better than you think you are.

Both JPs are certainly consonant with my views and experience. Getting faster and racing better take seat-time and some of the best seat-time learning occurs just behind others who are a bit faster and better racers. The Hanford device will make it easier to stay with faster cars, at least at tracks with good straights.

There's enormous satisfaction with improvement measured by moving up in standings unadulterated by artificial class distinctions. I don't even want an age dispensation - yet!

[eleven]

Originally Posted by Jim Pace

The guys we are not hearing from are the 5th-15th overall that would be winning races in the old system. Currently those guys don't have a chance at a podium but the 15th-20th guys are "winnning" Sportsman races.

JP

Actually it is the 5th-15th overall guys that we are hearing from and these are mostly the same guys winning.... in Sportsman.

If you look at the current standings for all four regions, 5th - 15th is mostly made up of the top Sportsmans mixed with a few Champ. drivers that didn't do the whole season.
Under the "old system" these guys would rarely see a podium except when the first 3 or 4 "Fast guys" flopped it off the road or hit each other. Likewise, at the end of the season if the top two dueling for the Championship weren't removed from the top 15 race, then they (5th-15th) would not get a podium trophy at the finale either.

Also, it was the consensus of the customers who said "I want to run every weekend against my buddy (or against the fast guys)" that brought on the new format. If that no longer applies, we can go back to the old format.

Todd

[Dom Bastien]

I think the Sportsman concept is a good one. When I started with SBRS 3 years ago, I was often overmatched and overwhelmed. I remember the Feb-04 memorial at Sebring which I started on pole. Going into turn 1, I felt I was being attacked by a swarm of bees. I could not see the track. By the time I got to turn 5, I had been passed by 14 cars and I duly spun from complete panic. I welcomed the Sportsman concept when it was introduced in the spring of 2004 as it allowed me to be incompetent and have fun.

Today, with SBRS’s success in converting a lot of 3-day drivers to race week-ends, many sportsmen drivers would get lapped on tracks with lap times of under 2 minutes. At Lime Rock, the bees would be buzzing by every 8 laps or so.

So in my view the Sportsman concept is still valid.

What we are talking about here is just a rebalancing. There are many Sportsmen fast enough to be in Championship and the Championship fields are very small. The guys who should be comfortable driving in the championship group should be there, and those who need more seat time should be in Sportsman. The net is that everybody should have fun.

The ONLY losers out of this proposed new system are the Sportsmen drivers who feel it’s important for them to win the Sportsman championship--that’s 3 drivers or so. And that number would drop to ZERO if they were forced to state the truth in their PR releases and on their web sites, e.g., that they won the Skip Barber SPORTSMAN class.

QED—everybody should be happy with Todd’s revised system.

[badgersid]

jim john and john maybe we are to old.and cant learn any new tricks

jp56 i think you meant obvious

[dalyduo]

I agree with Dom and those who've suggested that starting out is less intimidating when you're grouped with people of similar experience and lap times. That was certainly true for me. To the manly old-school men who were thrown in the deep end of the pool from the start and knew they were never going to see a podium I tip my cap. Not sure what the value is in being lapped in your first few races, or having a race start and then a lapping day with no one else around you except to use as a reference point as you plot your progress later on. It does make a better story I suppose.

As a beginner, unless you are coming from karting or some other race background, the experience is so overwhelming it probably doesn't matter much what group you're in except to those with a lot more experience who would much rather have fewer unpredictable moving chicanes to negotiate. That's another good reason to keep sportsman that hasn't been brought up to this point. Yes, dealing with backmarkers is part of racing but ruining a good race with a backmarker isn't very satisfying for anyone either.

In terms of what's good for business having a sportsman group with the rewards set up as Todd is proposing makes a lot of sense. Dom is right that we are talking about rebalancing more than reinventing the wheel.

It also seems to be a common theme of those who started out in the old single category system that races could devolve into little more than lapping days. That isn't the kind of first time experience we'd choose newbies to have if a well populated sportsman group would increase your odds on having others to dice with.

The updates being suggested keep it funner for newbie sportsman while giving more incentive to long time and fast sportsman to move up. And I believe that was the whole point of this thread to begin with. Right?

[jp56]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

The updates being suggested keep it funner for newbie sportsman while giving more incentive to long time and fast sportsman to move up. And I believe that was the whole point of this thread to begin with. Right?

True....but if I had to do it over again, I would choose the same way. I've always jumped in to things over my head and they always work out. When I was sailing on ocean voyages years ago, we'd always see boats on the dock waiting and waiting for the right time to start their first ocean crossing. They always had something to do first. We'd come back a few years later and they were still there. Always something else to do. I used to tell them, If you wait until your are ready, you'll never go.

[eleven]

It's interesting that this thread has been viewed 938 times (at this point) which is 3 times the amount of people that raced in the last year and yet only 18 people have voted..... Does this mean that us 18 people have viewed this 52 times a piece? I know I haven't.
C'mon people.... put up a vote!

Doug does this poll have an end date?

Todd

[chsutherland]

I started racing in the last year, and always think I get placed in the right group. Racing is hard, it looks easy but isn't. There is a whole lot going on while on the track, and all of it at pretty high speed. My second race weekend was much easier than my first. I am not sure what the criteria is for moving up, but to be honest I don't really worry about it. I think everyone goes just exactly at the pace they are suppost to. I could care less about trophy's. The "greatest lap in motorsports" would be enough. Maybe there should be a winners race at the end of the weekend. Free for winners, everyone else can pay? I like the idea of racing your way up into the higher ranks. What we really need is another 4 or 5 hours of day light!

[dalyduo]

Agreed... With nothing but respect from this end for you and all those who have thrived starting at the deep end.

After taking my adv 2 day I swore I wouldn't start racing until I could run below a minute at LRP running lapping days. Thought that's what I'd need to be ready. Thankfully I didn't tell many people this notion because after one lapping day with times in the 1:03's I was painfully aware that I might never run below a minute! That''s when I knew I wanted to learn from racing more than worry about lap times. As you say I'd still be on the dock if I'd let "being ready" run the show.

My only point here is that, given the choices now being considered, a healthy sportsman group first nudges a few tentative souls off the docks to get their feet wet and then into deeper Champ waters a bit sooner than has been recent practice. (Have we squeezed every drop from this analogy yet? :- )

Originally Posted by jp56

True....but if I had to do it over again, I would choose the same way. I've always jumped in to things over my head and they always work out. When I was sailing on ocean voyages years ago, we'd always see boats on the dock waiting and waiting for the right time to start their first ocean crossing. They always had something to do first. We'd come back a few years later and they were still there. Always something else to do. I used to tell them, If you wait until your are ready, you'll never go.

Todd and Doug,

We could give it an end date but at the risk of complicating things further, perhaps the creation of a new or modified pole to include voting on the proposed changes would be in order. We seem to be beyond whether people want change or not.

Originally Posted by eleven

It's interesting that this thread has been viewed 938 times (at this point) which is 3 times the amount of people that raced in the last year and yet only 18 people have voted..... Does this mean that us 18 people have viewed this 52 times a piece? I know I haven't.
C'mon people.... put up a vote!

Doug does this poll have an end date?

[turbo]

Alright Todd I'll make my first post.
I have been fortunate enough to enjoy the Skip Barber experience since '03 when Stevie D set the bait at the paddock booth at RA. I have far surpassed my dream of racing at RA because of the program Skippy offers. As a hobbiest racer with a limited budget I can only get to a few races a year and that is dwindling mostly because of dollars but also because of the lack of competition at the back of the Champ group.
My first race weekend was at Laguna which was one of the last old format (combined) weekends. I was very nervous but Randy and the gang set me at ease as much as possible. Although the field took off, I did learn alot and had a few instances of close racing. I was just happy to survive the weekend. The next summer I did 4 of 6 weekends in the Midwest Sportsman group. Having raced in karts for a year gave me a small edge on the competition. I made plenty of mistakes (sorry Rick) but again learned alot and was able to win a few races. The chase went to the last race until I pulled a "Bobo" in 12 . Congrats Mark. That season was my most competitive yet and gave me the confidence I needed to move up to the Champ group in the next season.
I have been in about 10 weekends since moving to the Champ group and podium'd once due to attrition. That 3rd taught me the lesson of staying on the track but has to be a big highlight of my "hobby". Unfortunately most of the other Champ races were expensive lapping days for me. Because I have not paid my dues to be able to run up front, I am destined for the back of the pack with an occasional mid place finish. I am fine with that but need more Champ slugs to run with to justify the cost of a race weekend. I am definately in favor of moving up Sportsman to fill the Champ field. Those who have won in Sportsman have the ability and should be confident that they can run in the Champ group.
Thanks for the website to help thru the non race weekends as well as the thread as the folks I talk to frequently discuss this topic.
Todd, good luck with the decision and I for one am hoping to see 15 in the Champ group this weekend if not for the Midwest season.
I definately will get Linda and you a cocktail in Cali. to ease your pain while deciding. Ding!

Tom

[Slowhands]

Todd:

I voted, and voted for change. But although Dom and DD have said it much more elegantly than me, and with all due respect to the more experienced hands whom I have great admiration for, I'd like to be clear where I stand: DO NOT GET RID OF SPORTSMAN. I like your plan to reduce the point value of finishes in Sportsman and to move people up (maybe the percentage needs to be tweaked), I think this will address a lot. You and the Skippy instructors know my story, but perhaps many others here do not. I took up this sport in October 2005 at the age of 45, having never raced a vehicle and having NO CLUE about car control, threshold braking, downshifting, heel-n-toeing, line, nothing. I was so slow I was running 15 sec a LAP behind the leader in SPORTSMAN in my first race weekend at Laguna and maxed out my CD "deductible" in both my first 2 weekends. It has taken me a TON of seat time just to learn the fundamentals of driving a race car (I have the receipts to prove it!). I had my own "Dom Memorial" experience, but in my case i went from pole to DFL by Sebring Turn ONE (I'm sure it was 4 wide at the back before the starter had even thought about moving his PINKY, but that's another story). One and Done.

It has taken every ounce of persistence I have (and I am more stubborn than most) and a LOT of support from JP, Keith Watts, Tom Roberts, Rob Slonaker, to name those most responsible for me still being around (now you know who to blame), not to pack it in. And I will put my "old-school" social Darwin credentials up against anyone's (Uphill. Both ways. ). A wise man once said, RACING IS STUPID EXPENSIVE. People have different definitions of STUPID (my family, for example ). At some point it can become TOO STUPID and stops being worth it if it stops being fun. Not everyone sees it as a proving ground for their man (or woman)hood. It has only been in the past few months that I actually started being able to COMPETE a little rather than just drive around working on "my craft." And in Sportsman, I have had role models on my quantum level to learn from and race with, and have FUN with. And a few trophies for positive reinforcement (yes, some of us in the shallow end need it). Had I had to struggle in the "deep" end for the whole last year, I would have drowned permanently and a long time ago. I would have taken my credit card and gone home. Because, let's face it, driving a race car can often feel like an out of body experience to a novice like me, this is not my livelihood mandating success at any cost, and I'm not particularly rich. (Foolish, maybe). Sportsman creates a public definition of success that is attainable for the novice, and makes improvement easier to perceive than if one is forced to always compare yourself to the sharp end of the field. Race driving is a difficult skill for others like me, and it is STUPID EXPENSIVE, so that it HAS to stay fun, and improvement, however small, has to be PERCEPTIBLE. Social Darwinism aside, the cost plays a significant role in one's thinking when you are not quick and up front. And based on other comments I've seen so far, if Skippy wants to hang on to professionals/business people of middle age with some disposable income, less than a full season of race weekends a year of free time or money, a desire for competition, fun, and camaraderie with others who share the passion of motorsports, and who are safe but unspectacular drivers without the time or budget to self-actualize to their full potential in a race car, then they should keep Sportsman. And I would think these would be people they would want to have to have full fields and a healthy business.

My $.02. (Actually, I'm still in Sportsman, so maybe it's only worth $.01)

[rf360m]

I much prefer the way the races have been run for the past few years. Prior to the sportsman/championship groupings I had several races with no one to race against. As the groups were fairly random it was very possible that you'd be in a group which had people faster than you, and people slower than you, but no one at your actual speed. So it became a lapping sesson. For someone who races only a few weekends a year that was very boring and not worth it.

The current way is fine for the most part. Yes, there are some people in sportsman who should probably be in championship. But you do get a lot more people in your group that you can race against.

I think the best suggestions have been the ones saying that if you are totally dominating your sportsman class then you should move up, otherwise you can stay in sportsman.

However, in the end, it is my opinion that as a customer of Skip Barber you should be able to race in whatever group you like. SB can suggest that you move up or down, but if you are paying why should they be able to force you into any group? They do need to attempt to give all their customers a fun and fair race experience. As there are many levels of ability, money, and time out there, having faster and slower groups works quite well. You choose your group that best fits your experience and comfort level and have a good, fun race weekend.

One important difference between championship and sportman, besides speed, is the agressiveness or the drivers. From what I have seen the championship drivers usually have better skills, and can drive closer together. Just because you are fast enough to run mid field in the championship group doesn't mean that you should. You may need more time to feel comfortable with the care in close quarrters with other drivers. This is something that only the driver can determine.

[rgreist]

Since I run in the Championship group, it doesn't make much difference to me whether we return to the old system or maintain the status quo. However, after reading what many Sportsmen or ex-Sportsmen have written, I voted to keep things the way they are.

People like to race against each other. Two classes of competition increases the likelihood of a pitched battle with someone else. If a driver doesn't choose to move up to Championship and is capable of doing so, so be it. That wouldn't be my approach, but I don't feel entitled to dictate to other drivers what they should and should not do.

People do this sort of thing in bike racing all the time. Strong riders stick around in the easier categories to accumulate hardware. These are the guys who generally attract the ire of their fellow competitors. I've always moved into the hardest group possible because 1) it seems like the best way for me (but not necessarily for others) to learn and 2) I'm more interested in beating my former self than beating other competitors. If I ride (or drive) as well as I can, that satisfies me.

All that said, this thread does provide the opportunity to announce that I'm moving down to Sportsman next season.

[dalyduo]

Like the Maytag repairman... You'll be the lonliest guy in Skippy town.

Originally Posted by rgreist

All that said, this thread does provide the opportunity to announce that I'm moving down to Sportsman next season.

[John Greist]

All that said, this thread does provide the opportunity to announce that I'm moving down to Sportsman next season.[/quote Revere]

I would like to move down with Revere so I could keep racing him, but it's too scary for old folk to race in Sportsman with the imaginative, even unique lines, braking points and passing maneuvers regularly employed there. Pat and Dom proved that for years, but have now moved up.

Seriously, there's merit in the two tier system and efforts to rebalance the system will work to everyone's advantage. Eric Hoffer wrote a lovely book, The Ordeal of Change. Once those moving up overcome discomfort with the new thing, they'll really like racing with folks who may be a bit better at the beginning, the learning curve is steeper, and finishing positions aren't discounted.

[cdh]

This thread was never about dissolving the Sporstman Class, just kill it's championship and have some guidelines as to when to move up. I don't think any real consideration is being given to eliminating Sportsman.....and I don't think they should, helps attract and keep more drivers and THAT is essential for all the Classes.

Trust me though guys, running Champ is being made out as some kind of nightmare, it isn't.

FWIW I have been reviewing incar vids from Laguna Sportsman races and there are a ton of guys who have lapping sessions in Sportsman races. No guarantee in any class.

BTW, for the record I have yet to win a race - since I left Sportsman last year to run with the lunatics in the MNCS I killed my chances, but leave I did and I got a lot faster. I almost had a P3 at VIR, missed it by 2 tenths, my times improved so quickly, and I only ran 3 weekends. Damn it I want a win this year and I will try like hell but improving is what it's really all about. I will do my first computer car session if there's room at VIR, to me it seems like one of the best values in the curriculum for getting quicker.

So come on guys, make the move, you know who you are. We don't need to be awarding any more fraidy cat badges do we?

[cdh]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

Todd and Doug,
We could give it an end date but at the risk of complicating things further, perhaps the creation of a new or modified pole to include voting on the proposed changes would be in order. We seem to be beyond whether people want change or not.

what.....you think this is a democracy?

no end date, I can add one if needed.

[Jim Pace]

To be clear, I really enjoy the RACING that takes place in the current system. The Hansford makes it even better! Scoring it can be an issue with "Doubles" "Makeups" & "Transfers" sometimes being tricky but Todd does a wonderful job under the circumstances however he does not always have enough of the needed groups to work with.

The issue I think is how to best "balance" the groups between Champion & Sportsman. (Thanks Dom). And removing the Sportsmand title may be just the ticket to help encourage guys to move up.

My comment about the 5-15 guys...
(New system P4-12 Champion group would be Old system podiums! 4 groups x top three equals top 12 guys at the track w/ a trophy. You worked hard to earn your way into that group. For new guys to finish on the same lap was a big accomplishment and was celebrated. Now top 3 Champion get a trophy and then Sportsman guys. P5-10 in Champion get to cheer for their buddies and hope someone has contact.)

No matter what the grouping it is a great place to get racing experience and meet new people.
JP

[OLDMAN]

Originally Posted by cdh

I almost had a P3 at VIR, missed it by 2 tenths, my times improved so quickly, and I only ran 3 weekends.

Only 3 weekends? That's $12,000 of after tax money for me (assuming I don't hit anything). If this is what it takes to almost get a P3 I need a new hobby. Is it possible to be competitive without spending more than you make?

OLDMAN

[cdh]

Originally Posted by OLDMAN

Only 3 weekends? That's $12,000 of after tax money for me (assuming I don't hit anything). If this is what it takes to almost get a P3 I need a new hobby. Is it possible to be competitive without spending more than you make?

OLDMAN

see my signature.......for you Bob

[rslonaker]

For me there needs to be one more vote option. Go back to the old system.

I started like many in the past with everyone is in one championship. Like J. Pace has eluded to with more distribution of drivers ability levels across all groups there is less likelyhood of your race being a lapping day. You always had somebody to race with, even though the result might be only a 5-10 finish. With the Hansford on the cars now the draft will keep those almost podium guys (read sportsman winners) in the hunt. I remember my first time at the Glen and discovering that the draft allowed me to run up front even though all the races up to that weekend I never finished higher than 8th or so. Podiumed there my first year just by being sucked along with the faster guys and boy did I learn a lot. Next weekend at Lime Rock, back to the middle of the pack. But I had a taste and it was enough to keep me motivated.

The series is about learning and fun. So consider the experience of those of us that have done it for a long time. That if there are enough people to have 4 or 5 groups, and they are all running for one Championship, you will have people to race with. And through the dynamics of a particular track and/or luck with car draw, you will find your race results improving and moving up. As the season winds down and the championship contenders have to start racing each other then others will have the chance at hardware. Speaking from someone who took 28 races to win, that first victory was well worth the wait.

Rob

[PT Cruiser]

Well, it was a tough call, but I just registered a vote for returning to the old system (championship groups only).

I resonate with JP's argument that the 15 trophies available each race day (assuming there are enough folks at the weekend to run 5 groups) should go to the 15 fastest people at the track that day, not to the 6 fastest guys, and then 9 midfield runners.

I'll admit a certain amount of self interest in voting this way. But the fact of the matter is that I have put in a LOT of effort, over 15 years, to raise my game to the point where I could regularly compete for a podium under the old system. Thanks to the change to the championship/sportsman format, my reward for all of this effort has been an endless string of 5-8th place finishes.

What makes the vote tough is that I do think the champion/sportsman format leads to closer racing, on average, than with the old system. But at the larger weekends, when there are enough drivers to get 12-15 in each of five groups, I don't think the difference is huge.

[John Greist]

There are better learning opportunities for beginners and more accurate distribution of trophies based on ability with the old system.

The old system put people with others of similar ability, just behind those who were a bit better, throughout the groups. The Hanford device will keep people closer so those behind can learn longer from those just ahead in each race - as with the Formula cars before. Bad learning can occur in the midst of too many beginners. "Lapping" day races happen in Sportsman as well as Championship races, as CDH reminds us.

What's good about the two group system? Sportsmen like it and collect most of the hardware. Increased weekend numbers seemed to correlate with institution of the two group system. But recent large weekend numbers also correlate with combining east and midwest series and small numbers occur even with the two groups system - witness 19 at Thunderhill in the west and 25 at Moroso in the south (numbers in 2nd races). We had turn-customer-away numbers in the past without combining series and with the Championship only group system. Correlation does not prove causation.

Have Championship numbers dropped because of the change to two groups? Perhaps. Have rising costs reduced the number of regular runners? Maybe. Would switching back to the one group system lead to better learning and racing? That's my belief, not knowledge. Would whatever change is made with groupings have unintended consequences? Likely. The racing addiction is strong but can be affected by factors hard to identify with confidence.

Whatever is done, SBR still seems the best racing series for a lot of us and better for openess to a lot of people who care about SBR.

[cdh]

Wow, 9 and counting for a return to Championship only, surprising.

[John Greist]

While change is in the air, any interest in undoing the race drops formula so that every race counts? That's what happens in every other series I know about.

Who lost championships because of this rule? Barry Waddell, Revere, Todd Snyder ... perhaps others.

[cdh]

Found this, seemed to fit....

It is not always possible to be the best, but it is always possible to improve your own performance. (Jackie Stewart)

[weldonjc]

I love the points made and not going to state the obvious as everyone has talked it to death. However, in the last 2 years I feel like I was one of the few people that this rule actually applied to (eastern series only). I won 2 races in the same weekend and was asked to move up. I could have made a run for the sportsman title if I had stayed. WHO CARES? That trophy means I was the 22nd fastest guy in one of 4 regions. get over yourself.

However, the problem for the rest of that year and last year was that I was alone in the back while the other sportsman winners stayed there to keep grabbing wins. I had like 2 people to run with in Champ group. I did get faster, showed a slight hint of car control, and had moderate fun. If the top 3-4 guys from sportsman would have been with me I would have attended more race weekends for sure last year. Instead, I would take less time off work and "double up" or go without practice and lapping so I could get in the car again. But it wasnt really the same experience. It would have been cheaper to do lapping only. I kind of stopped showing up.

I think sportsman should be reserved for the guys who are BRAND NEW only. like the first 3-4 races. If they start out fast but cant stay on track then they stay until they can stay on track. I think havign those guys in champ group will cause more yellow, black and red flags...I LOVE the fact that I can turn in on Dom or Jim Craige and we all feel certain nobody is going to do something too stupid. You dont develop that in 3 weekends....I'm still working on the "craft".

I'm late to the party and it looks like the rules have been drafted but dont move a guy given hes top 2% in lap times but cant execute a safe pass. Let the new guys duke it out and feel the thrill of the top step (once) but your real focus should be the guys in the middle the 30 of the group. The people who rank 5th thru 35th out of the 50 guys there. Champ group races with 8 guys are a joke.

Im sure SB will do the right thing. Brassard, Nick, Steve I hope to see you at the back of the big boy grid soon.


-Weldon

[LimeRockRacer]

It is amazing to me that reference is consistently made to a few of us who ran Sportsman last year. For the record, I had one win last year and Nick S may have had one podium if that. The people that dominated the division did not belong in the division.

Further, rule changes aside, what makes anyone assume that the handful of us already had not made the decision on our own to move up this season?

This thread is way too long as the points from all of us have already been made and understood by Todd and his staff. Let's close the thread and move on to something else already. Todd, can we please have the new rules so that we can give them a try? Somehow I know we will all find something there we don't like as well...

Lastly, to my dear friend JC, we don't plan on being at the back for too long!

[dalyduo]

OK LRR... Now your turn to take a deep breath. No need to end the discussion. It's all good. Who knows? There may be no Sportsman group to worry about. The voting now indicates more are interested in going back to the future of one size fits all race groups so cherished by those who ran it back in the day. If Todd swings things in that direction it would be interesting even though I was looking forward to seeing what Champ group would be like with fewer novices to negotiate. No free lunches either way. I hope JC shows up more often so I can chase him and CDH along with anyone else who joins the party. We fast Sportsmen slow Champ groupsters are here to have fun and learn the craft from instructors and each other. The only thing I do know is I'm going to have fun playing with whoever shows up.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by weldonjc

I think sportsman should be reserved for the guys who are BRAND NEW only. like the first 3-4 races. If they start out fast but cant stay on track then they stay until they can stay on track. I think havign those guys in champ group will cause more yellow, black and red flags...I LOVE the fact that I can turn in on Dom or Jim Craige and we all feel certain nobody is going to do something too stupid. You dont develop that in 3 weekends....I'm still working on the "craft".

I'm late to the party and it looks like the rules have been drafted but dont move a guy given hes top 2% in lap times but cant execute a safe pass. Let the new guys duke it out and feel the thrill of the top step (once) but your real focus should be the guys in the middle the 30 of the group. The people who rank 5th thru 35th out of the 50 guys there. Champ group races with 8 guys are a joke.

-Weldon

Great to hear from you CW, well said, welcome back. You did get an 'early push' I recall, and Champ was at a bit of a low point then, I remember your frustration. Hope you'll be there for a few weekends this year, with more people making the move, Champ could prove to be a lot of fun...look forward dicing with you again, been too long!

cdh

[cdh]

The answers, hot off the presses from Todd's email to VIR drivers -

Click to download the 2007 Rules PDF

Dear Racers:

I'm looking forward to another fun-filled Summer Series. Attached is an electronic version of the confirmation pack. I apologize for the delay but we were finishing the rule books and as you may know, we have had a lot of race weekends in the last few months. The confirmation packs will be mailed this Friday, and as always, you are required to sign the rulebook and either mail it back to us or bring it with you to your first program of the year. You can get a head start with the medical and other forms in the confirmation pack while you are waiting for the mailed copies.

We have made some significant changes to the 2007 Summer Rule book. I want to take this opportunity to outline them for you; however there are other changes and I encourage you to read the entire rule book.

Race Groups

5.2.1 Class Types
There are two class types, Championship and Sportsman. While both classes will race separately, they will both score points for the overall points standings and the Championship. Sportsman drivers will be moved up to the Championship class based on the Managing Staff and Observers knowledge and experience of the skill level of the driver. Part of the decision process will also be the drivers lap time, using approximately 3% of the fastest practice time as a bench mark and/or if their average lap time from their last 6 races is within 3% of the average fastest lap time. All drivers must declare which class they wish to compete in PRIOR to their first race weekend. All New Drivers will be placed in the Sportsman class at their first race weekend.

No Sunday Racers

If a driver requests a "No Sunday" race weekend* (both races on Saturday), the following procedures will apply: the driver will qualify and race in his or her designated group. A driver may purchase the qualifying session for the second race (which is 20% of a race weekend) or they may start from the back of the grid for his/her "no Sunday race". Please note all requests must be done two weeks in advance. Requests at the track may be denied. Please note that at Lime Rock Park it would be "no Saturday" weekend, with two races on Friday. We cannot guarantee an equal group or that a driver will not have to race both races consecutively.

Master Points on the Finale weekend

The Masters point system is identical to the Race Series, including deducting the two lowest results ("Drops"). Master's will score points in their race groups on the finale weekend. In addition a separate Masters race will also be held on the last day of the finale weekend of each championship. This race may not be utilized as a Drop.
If you have any questions please let me know.

Take Care,

Todd Snyder
VP of Competition
800.221.1131 ext 111
tsnyder@skipbarber.com

[OLDMAN]

I notice a Masters' Championship for those 40 and over, and a Grand Masters' Championship for those 50 and over. This begs the question, is there a Geriatrics' Championship for guys like me? Or is it me and George McArthur?


OLDMAN

[John Greist]

Originally Posted by OLDMAN

I notice a Masters' Championship for those 40 and over, and a Grand Masters' Championship for those 50 and over. This begs the question, is there a Geriatrics' Championship for guys like me? Or is it me and George McArthur?


OLDMAN

Lippert, Wahl, Cochran and I and I'm sure others are over 60, so it depends where the cut would occur. Over 65, there are fewer, but still several.

[weldonjc]

Brassard,

I wasnt really talking about you..until the end...the main offenders were the year before with a stretch of 8 wins. I dont think you guys bagged at all last year. it was a good fight for the first few spots in that division. i either want you guys to move or someone or I'm coming back down and only do 2-3 races for fun. Just took the week off to come down to VIR....any rooms left? whos going?

[dalyduo]

Originally Posted by weldonjc

Just took the week off to come down to VIR....any rooms left? whos going?

Started a new thread to address this question. Who's going to VIR?

[LimeRockRacer]

Thanks JC... we've all been humming a new tune for a whiile now, post # 3,582 on the topic just wore me down
"...Movin' on up....to the Champ side...to the P O D UM in the sky...."

[Racing Yoda]

I wasn't going to offer this suggestion right now, but there seems to be so much interest in the subject, I've decided to throw it out.
It may be too late to implement for the East and Midwest Series this year, but here it is:

A single championship meaning that the best (fastest) guys who run the maximum number of events will finish at the top of the points.

The objective is to get people racing with poeople of similar speed and experience while providing a system for moving them up and down from one speed level to another. The faster you get the faster are the guys you race against. It's a meritocracy.

The rules are fairly simple. but will place responsibility on both the individual driver and SBRS to get drivers into the right groups.

Weekends divided into 3, 4 or 5 groups depending on entry size.

Groups will be Championship (1 and sometimes 2)
Sportsman (A, B and sometimes C)

One difference is that, in Sportsman, you get more points the higher (faster) your group.

In Championship, if there are 2 groups needed, the points will be the same in both.

Point system - the higher (faster) the group the more points. Perhaps Dom or someone with higher math skills, can offer a points scheme. It could be something as simple as the current Championship/Sportsman points with 80% for B and 60% for C Sportsmen.

An important difference is that if you podium (top 3) in your Sportsman group twice in a weekend, you move to the next higher Sportsman group for your next weekend.

If you finish in the bottom three in your Sportsman group twice in a weekend in your group, you will be moved down to the next slower group.

A driver can initially request a placement in a group (either Championship or Sportsman A,, or C, but if his speed is well above that group, SBRS may elect to move him/her up. Those who do not request placement in a specific group, will be assigned by SBRS.

If you finish in the bottom 3 of the Championship group, you may move down to Sportsman A.

Years ago, many more drivers ran the entire season, and a system like this might have been even more relevent under that scenario. That said, this system should get drivers racing with others of comparable speed, and help them progress by raising the bar as they get faster.

With a single unified Championship, we could add year end awards to recognize those who make big progress during a season, have a couple of great isolated weekends. Least crash damage per point, etc. The mind bogles at the possibilities.

I offer it for your consideration and discussion. I'm sure I haven't thought of every permutation, but like any system, it's only as good as the people who run it....both drivers and SBRS.

I'll check back before I leave for VIR to see what you think.

[John Greist]

Wow Bob! Yes! Probably too late for this year, but astute and feasible for the future.

[cdh]

I was just talking to Ashlei JuicyGirl and she pointed out another reason to race in Champ (or doing away with Sportsman). It's fun being able to say you've raced with Viso, Matos, Allmendinger, Andretti, Edwards, Patterson, etc.

SB trains so many drivers that go on to pro series, there's always a chance you'll be racing against future pros
(hello Taylor boys ).

[OLDMAN]

A few years ago I was in a group with Marco Andretti. I showed up at LRP on Thursday, he was there on Monday doing multiple sessions. I had nothing for him, he lapped me before the session was over. It was not fun, and nobody really cares they I was ever on the track with him.

More recently I was racing in a Sportsman group with Chris Wheldon (among others). He and I swapped our positions 6 times fighting for a podium. It was great fun, I have both videos, and every so often I drag them out and enjoy the day again.

If I could do either event again, I would choose Wheldon over Andretti.


OLDMAN

[rf360m]

Originally Posted by OLDMAN

A few years ago I was in a group with Marco Andretti. I showed up at LRP on Thursday, he was there on Monday doing multiple sessions. I had nothing for him, he lapped me before the session was over. It was not fun, and nobody really cares they I was ever on the track with him.

More recently I was racing in a Sportsman group with Chris Wheldon (among others). He and I swapped our positions 6 times fighting for a podium. It was great fun, I have both videos, and every so often I drag them out and enjoy the day again.

If I could do either event again, I would choose Wheldon over Andretti.


OLDMAN

I absolutely agree. I don't care about racing professional drivers because I won't be able to race them. They'll blow me away. I'd much rather say I had a great battle with a fellow amateur racer than watch some professional driver with years of experience drive off into the distance.

Keep the sportsman group for the occasional racers, and have the championship group for the full time racers.

[dalyduo]

I beg to differ sportsters. We've experienced the heat of Champ group (at VIR) and it is good. The most intense experience to date in a race car. In both practice sessions and qualifying placed 7th of 14 in my group. Three ahead of me threw themselves off during qualifying so started P4. Got a great start and jumped to P2 through turn one before being swallowed up over the next four laps by those faster drivers pushing me back to (surprise!) P7. On lap nine while dogging P5 & 6 threw myself off at turn 10 and had to come in for a safety check then had a really fun battle with Jim Craige (who had an off on lap one) for P9. Jim won by a nose but we had lots of good hamster fun in the process.

Race two started 10th. Moved to 8th on lap one and 7th on lap two. Turned a draft assisted 2:11.6 our fastest lap of the weekend by more than a second. Managed to stay with the lead pack for about half the race gapping the field behind us until losing the lead pack draft. Kept my nose clean and finished alone in P5 after two in the lead pack threw themselves off.

Everything about Champ group was at a higher level. Lap times lower, driving aggressiveness and skill level higher. The overall energy and concentration required also higher. It was more confronting in every way and I had a ball. Even the instructor feedback was better. Learned a lot with plenty left on the table. It's tougher but you couldn't pay me to go back to Sportsman now. (Not that there's anything wrong with that! )

Don't be afraid to join the party!

PS. Tried radio coaching with Rob Slonaker for the first time and it was a big plus on many levels. Highly recommend it.

[John Greist]

Yup. Yup. Yup. TJR website requires logorrhea to submit a reply.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

...We've experienced...... 2:11.6 our fastest lap.....gapping the field behind us.....

PS. Tried radio coaching with Rob Slonaker for the first time and it was a big plus on many levels. Highly recommend it.

DD - I know Rob was with you via radio, but who else was in your car????

Originally Posted by John Greist

Yup. Yup. Yup. TJR website requires logorrhea to submit a reply.

Doc, we tried being more wordy but this is as much as we could come up with........

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by cdh

DD - I know Rob was with you via radio, but who else was in your car????

hey Doug, give him a break, willya? He's in Champ now-- he's just getting ready for Speedchannel

[John Greist]

Originally Posted by cdh

DD - I know Rob was with you via radio, but who else was in your car????

Single seat car, single driver, but I heard they reversed costumes and roles Sunday. Says worlds about DD's coaching

[dalyduo]

Besides my big head and Rob's voice in the helmet I also had a Warner Bros. cast of cartoon characters in the forms of Daffy Duck, Yosemite Sam, Elmer Fudd and Buggs Bunny all offering animated vocal commentary on my raggedy driving. It does get crowded in there but... The more the merrier!

Regarding the "We" vs "I" thing. Now that we're getting our tail kicked in Champ group We needed some way to show how much better life is with the higher status and pleasure of running among the truly fast. What better way than some 2nd person personal pronouns with a Long Island lock-jaw, nose in the air, faux English accent (a la' Madonna after her marriage to that English vidiot) to create the illusion of status not yet earned.

Love the notion of switching places with Rob in race two. The only problem with that is he'd have won the race and I'd have been discovered in the tower with the headset on.