How do you set up for a re-pass?

[Andrew]

OK, how about this:

How do you set up for a repass?

What I try to do is, knowing I'm about to get passed going into a corner, I brake a little sooner to let the other car get clear of the line I want to take which, would be a late apex, brake a little deeper to facilitate a late apex, do a trail brake to help point the car at the apex and then apply full throttle as early as I can while turning under the passing car as it , if timed just right, has just cleared my front wing. While they pick up the normal race line, I try to go inside sooner and accelerate sooner than they can get to full throttle.
What do you think? Good or not good? How do you do it?

[kwlorentzen]

Originally Posted by Andrew

OK, how about this:

How do you set up for a repass?

What I try to do is, knowing I'm about to get passed going into a corner, I brake a little sooner to let the other car get clear of the line I want to take which, would be a late apex, brake a little deeper to facilitate a late apex, do a trail brake to help point the car at the apex and then apply full throttle as early as I can while turning under the passing car as it , if timed just right, has just cleared my front wing. While they pick up the normal race line, I try to go inside sooner and accelerate sooner than they can get to full throttle.
What do you think? Good or not good? How do you do it?

Sounds prety good, but if we're 'pointing' the car so we can drive off the corner straighter than the other guy, maybe it would make more sense to tuck in behind the other car comming off the corner? In this way we have effectively kept our acceleration advantage intact instead of wasting that energy by keeping a tighter turning radius on trackout. You may get to be even with the other guy at the exit, but who is moving faster at point X? Whichever technique you use the goal is to be faster at point Y- your breaking point for the next corner.

That's my not-so-expert opinion.

[Andrew]

I'm kind of thinking that the other car has also compromised his speed by going in on the inside and reducing his radius, so it boils down to who can get on the throttle sooner.
What do you think?
If I was going to tuck in behind I'd try to leave a little gap by breaking a little earlier and try my best to carry as much speed through the exit and accelerate in their draft and try the re-pass on the straight.
I suppose it would make a difference on the length of the straight after the corner. That might work great at, say turn 14 or 1 at road America, but not turn 5 at same.

[J Goring]

There is no definition or "correct way" to do a repass. It depends on too many different factors and there are so many different kinds of scenarios to pin down on one correct way to do it.

[rf360m]

If the car trying to pass you performs a good pass, then the above strategy won't work. The passing car should pull up along side you. That driver should know where they are going to brake, which would be a bit earlier than they would usually brake because of the tighter turn radius they now have to make. But if you brake a bit earlier than that, then they should get on the brakes right when you do. That way they keep you to the outside, the corner is theirs, and you have to either back off, or go off track.

Of course, you may be able to draft and repass down the following straight. This then brings up the point of which corners are good passing one. Take Watkins Glen, for example. Turn one is a great passing opportunity because of the long front straight, but also one of the worst places to pass because you will almost definitely get re-passd into the bustop unless you are far faster. The bustop, however, is a great passing opportunity because it is followed by several more turns, which prevent a repass.

[dalyduo]

Agreeing there is no "correct way" there are situations that present themselves with some regularity. As a general rule anything that forces the overtaking driver to compromise their corner to beat you going in will leave you with an opportunity to take them back coming out if the next section of track allows it and you are able to anticipate it wisely. As your situational awareness grows you'll learn how to position yourself to leave your competition with the greatest compromise if they really want to force the issue and you with the best line to return the favor coming out of the turn if they do.

As you race more you'll learn where the high percentage choices are both for passing and re-passing. In fact some of your greatest learning experiencess will come when people pass you in places and at times that you didn't think possible. It may not yet be possible for you to execute what you see being done but it will open your eyes and make you think about what is possible.

[Kart Racer 4444]

Well what I do is that if there is someone attempting an outbraking manoeuvre I'll either try to stay side by side in the corner if it isn't a tight corner but if it is a hairpin I'll brake earlier to let him pass (that's if I couldn't block the inside) and then I'll do a crossover because since he braked later he'll lose more speed off the exit and I'll already be on the throttle on the inside and pass him. But if the driver didn't end up going wide through the middle of the corner I would just end up right behind his bumper and most likely have a run on him and pass him out of the slipstream. There's just so many different scenarios that could happen and too many types of corners.

[kwlorentzen]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

As you race more you'll learn where the high percentage choices are both for passing and re-passing. In fact some of your greatest learning experiencess will come when people pass you in places and at times that you didn't think possible. It may not yet be possible for you to execute what you see being done but it will open your eyes and make you think about what is possible.

Watch out for making a pass at a low-precentage location...I rember being scolded for making a pass going into the Oak Tree at VIR.

[dalyduo]

The good news is you were scolded rather than punted into a big crash damage bill. That's the great thing about Skippy racing. Having the instructors observing all the time gives you invaluable feedback from many angles of a situation.

Keith's point is well taken that simply because you see someone pull off a high risk maneuver, you don't want to assume that you can do it too or that you even understand what they're thinking. When you're green you have so much less understanding of what you and the car are capable of.

The smart thing to do is to talk with the instructors and the drivers involved in a seemingly high risk maneuver and note everyone's position on it. There is sometimes a fine line between brilliant driving and lunacy. The instructors have a pretty good idea where that line is and they'd probably agree that when starting out most everyone is painting with a very broad brush.

Originally Posted by kwlorentzen

Watch out for making a pass at a low-precentage location...I rember being scolded for making a pass going into the Oak Tree at VIR.

[Racing Yoda]

Jonathan and Pat have this right. Too many variables. A repass is simply a well executed pass made after you have been passed. It requires the elements of any pass. These are a speed advantage and a positional advantage.
Sometimes the original pass will provide you the advantage that sets up the repass, but if the original pass is really well executed it will likely take away that possible advantage. You must then create your own advantage to make the repass.
It is useful to run through both passing and being passed scenarios in your mind for each track you race at. It is mental preparation for situations you may have to deal with, and creates instinctive responses that can be helpful in dealing with the real situation when it occurs.
Passing and repassing is the application in real time of lessons you have previously learned and assimilated. It's like many other tactical aspects of racing, the best plan is no plan because it gives you more options to take advantage or your opponent.

[PT Cruiser]

As a variation on this question, does anyone have any tricks for pulling off a braking zone pass when you are the third car in a 3 car train, and you are trying to outbrake the second car in line? I intensely dislike this situation, because it is generally necessary to push the limits of braking to pull off the pass of car #2, with the attendant risk of overshooting the corner and sliding wide of the Apex. When passing a single car, this is no big deal -- the worst outcome is getting a lousy exit, and immediately getting repassed, but if there is another car immediately in front, overshooting the corner could lead to a nasty collision with the first car in the train just as that driver turns in to the apex.

Is there any way to minimize the risk in this situation, or does one just have to use one's best judgement, take the gamble, and hope for the best?

[Gerardo]

Peter,

No need to gamble. Simply account for the increase in speed with the draft and brake using your trackside brake references. If you are truly better at braking than the guy in front, you'll pass eloquently without risk to the first car in line.

As the others have posted, many variables, and things change quickly. Experience prepares you for many scenarios.

[Vin]

I'd say idealy, try to prevent a pass/repass from happening! Best is to be out in front!!

If you are not there yet, and someone is trying to pass you, better to just "block" than plan for a pass/repass, since if the driver passing you is quite experienced, he should be able to do it without a repass being possible, unless you draft back.

When you are passing someone, prevent a repass from happening by keeping the car tight on the inside as you are leaving the apex, the place where the other driver would try to repass you. It might slow down your exit a bit, but it keeps you in the BEST position to block! He can't pass you on the inside, as you are there, and if he trys to pass you on the outside, just slowly drive to the outside following the normal racing line.

Well, it's easier to show than to write about. So, in summary, avoid pass/repass situations!

Have a happy. .
Vinay

[Racing Yoda]

This response is for everyone, but especially Vinay.

While I know "blocking" has become an integral part of racing today, I think it bears some discussion here.

During my 30+ years of racing I had a reputation for being "hard to pass". I was, however, never penalized or even warned about "blocking".

Unfortunately, in todays "winning is everything" racing world, blocking has become way too much a part of racing reality. You hear in racing commentary on TV all the time "catching him is one thing, passing him will be another". This can refer to blocking or simply wiliness.

So, let's talk about making yourself hard to pass vs blocking, because every sanctioning body draws the line somewhere, even NASCAR.

I'm not going to go into a lot of detail on being hard to pass. Suffice to say that if you are racing with someone of essentially the same speed, and you have decided not to cooperate with the other driver so you can both go faster than the others who are chasing you, there are a variety of ways of not offering easy opportunities to your competitor to pass. These involve positioning your car so that a pass may put your competitor at a disadvantage. I refer to this "as making him earn it".

Getting to the traffic first and using it to "scrape off" your close competitor can also be a useful strategy in holding the lead against an equal competitor.

But, and it's a big but, blocking is a totally different thing, and in my opinion, it should not be allowed under any circumstances.

Forcing your competitor to lift by making a sudden move, tracking out to the road edge when your competitor is beside you on the outside, squeezing a competitor who is passing on the inside off at the apex, are just some examples of where the line should be drawn. All are dangerous and should be penalized.

In summary, if somebody is faster and smarter than you they will get by. Don't cheat by "blocking".

Let's keep the sport in motorsport.

[LimeRockRacer]

I agree with Bob's points on keeping the sport in motorsport and that blocking and taking away racing line with sudden moves creates some very dangerous situtations that are unnecessary.

With that said my experience in SBRS has been more positive on these issues as most drivers are respectful and most situations where a block comes about is usually from a brain fart or lack of experience as opposed to intent. I have only experienced serious intended blocking a handful of times from a very short list of participants.

Taking an inside line without compromising the safety of yourself or others where you have a clear advantage to start with seems a bit different to me than the terminology "blocking" connotates. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this R Yoda...

Hope your winter is treating you fine...

[Racing Yoda]

My response was simply an attempt to help define the line between "defending a position" and blocking.

My experience is similar to yours, not often and only a few people.

What winter...it's 68 degrees and sunny as I write this on January 6th in New Hampshire.

[ORBlues]

Of course if you go and race in the SCCA be prepared for everyone else to block - hence the need for the outside pass into Big Bend....

Bob, you were not hard to pass - just too %$#@ fast!

There were only two times I was blocked in a Skip race - one resulted in a big crash in Big Bend (other driver took the brunt of the damage, so the "blocker" doesn't always get way scott free), and the other, I was run off the track under the starter's stand. The other driver ended up with a DQ in the results.

I do believe blocking is an important part of racing, but only if the "one move" rule is followed. And that one move should never affect a car that is already made his/her move.

ChrisZ

[cdh]

Thanks Bob, good stuff - please look at this video example (4 min), it's Dan Badia in the camera car chasing me in the white car at MT in 2002 (excuse the encode, lower resolution).

Would you consider my lines entering Turn 4 as blocking moves? That was the only spot Dan could get me and I thought I could defend the inside, was this bogus or fair in your opinion?

Toyoda...

[kwlorentzen]

From my POV, I think you're fine. What if the outside lane was slipery? If that's where your car runs well, and gets you setup for the next corner, then that's where you want to run.

Other oppinions?