A thread to vent about Indycar

[cdh]

I didn't think it at all fitting to go negative on the RIP Dan Wheldon thread, but there needs to be a place for that. If you want to unload about Indycar, the astoundingly long list of stupid, dangerous decisions made by race control this season, Bernard, Barnhart or anything else for that matter, this is the place for it.

I saw this clip from last Sunday's Wind Tunnel and found it interesting and moving. If you prefer to not view more clips of the wreck, begin playback at 2:50. Also, the caller at the end completely misses the point imo

[cdh]

From Toronto Indy July 2011 race report: "When he took over IndyCar last year, Randy Bernard made it clear that he had never watched a race. But the former bull riding CEO knew what he wanted to see: crashes."

"The former CEO of Professional Bull Riders figured that the two sports were not unlike in that they both catered to fans hoping to see someone get tossed in the air. “As long as I’m CEO, danger will be an important element of this sport,” Bernard said a few weeks ago. “When you sign up to be a race car driver, you accept a responsibility for that danger. And if you don’t want to be a race car driver because of danger, go find another profession.”

Bernard

The drivers were concerned about racing on the Vegas track, 1.5 miler, high banks, 220+ MPH lap after lap, wheel to wheel, hub to hub, too large a field and then after just 11 laps the scenario they all feared plays out and we lose Dan...do we blame Bernard? A case could be made, I for one am beyond angry at Indycar "management". Someone needs to look long and hard at Indycar, the series needs a racer at the helm, not this rodeo clown.

Franchitti wins wild Toronto Indy

*** I forgot to mention I thank Slowhands for much of this content, he sent an email that
really nailed this topic and my post is infused with many of his observations...thanks Harsha! ***

[cdh]

SO CLOSE!!!! Baltimore GP, Sept 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dr05J9nvUhA

[ORBlues]

Originally Posted by cdh

I didn't think it at all fitting to go negative on the RIP Dan Wheldon thread, but there needs to be a place for that. If you want to unload about Indycar, the astoundingly long list of stupid, dangerous decisions made by race control this season, Bernard, Barnhart or anything else for that matter, this is the place for it.

I wrote this on another forum in response to someone who implied that the danger can be removed from Indy racing:

>>>>
Look at Henry Surtees accident or Felipe Massa's. How would you prevent them?

Norm Marx ran a FF with a full roll cage - but nobody runs it because it does not look right.

I might have been the one to introduce the high cockpit bars when I mentioned it to Leslie Drysdale and he put it in the Skip Barber School cars, but that still does not mean the cars are as safe as they could be.

You are never going to make cars as safe as you will want.

Take a look at these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4SJTjRs-rI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQs7o...feature=fvwrel

Chills on the second one when you realize Dan and Dario were involved. Dario and Scott Dixon should have been badly hurt in this.

Ryan Brisco:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC3qVLHdjP8

Kenny Brack

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxGorNHkfQk

Open cockpit cars are more dangerous than closed. The only option to make them seriously safer is to enclose the cockpit. If you are not willing to do that then anything you do is just a matter of degree.

ChrisZ

PS - Extending the roll hoop over the driver (sort of like Fuel dragsters) is one option. Since the driver cannot see sideways much anymore, it seems like the next step. <<<<<
-------------------------------

Mistakes were made this year and I do believe BB needs to go. Having said that, the incidents above pre-date Randy, and you can't blame them on the track or the officials - just the drivers.

ChrisZ

[Rosso]

I started out in the late '60's as a teen-aged pit rat, crewing for a dirt 3/4 midget. It was just at the very dawn of the full roll cage open-wheel dirt car era for TQ's, sprint and Champ cars (now Silver Crown). I can tell you that more than once I heard that full roll cages would kill open wheel racing. Wasn't manly enough, only sissies need a cage. I don't recall that any of those comments came from drivers. I can tell you I never saw a decapitaion as the result of a race incident in those 5 years. Those who had been around for the 10 years prior could not say that.

[PT Cruiser]

My impression of Randy Barnard has generally been pretty good --it seems like he has done a lot to help bring the sport of IndyCar back from near death-- but it does seem in this case that his desire for a big spectacle overruled some very legitimate and serious safety concerns. Bad as things turned out, particulary for Wheldon, and especially for his family, I think IndyCar should consider itself lucky that a car, or the remnants of one, didn't get into the stands and take out a bunch of spectators as well.

In my mind, oval racing is part of the history of IndyCar racing, and ought to be part of the series, but they simply can't keep running taladega-style packs at 220 MPH. Some changes that would help:

1. Change the bodywork so that it takes more than a minor misjudgement to initiate wheel-to-wheel contact. Fortunately, IndyCar seems to be planning to do exactly that with the 2012 chasis.
2. Give up on 1.5 mile ovals, particularly those with high degrees of banking. The cars should not race on any track where it is possible to stay flat the entire way around (at Indy, they should put in place chasis and Aero rules that force people to lift in the corners, even if it means slowing down the average lap speeds by 20 MPH). That isn't racing, anyway, it's just the motorsport equivalent of professional wrestling --a staged entertainment spectacle masquerading as sport.
3. Get the same guys who invented the SAFER barrier to come up with a better alternative to catch fenching. Although it seems to do a reasonable job of protecting the spectators (and is cheap to install), it just rips carbon fiber to shreds.

[ORBlues]

I just found this - one of the best articles so far:

http://espn.go.com/rpm/conversations...ving-yet-again

We also have to remember, Indycar was a victim of it's own success. At the beginning of the year, people wwere wondering if 20 cars would show up for Las Vegas. The work they did attracted 34 cars. While all the drivers may not have had an equal level of experience, some veterans have made mistakes recently.

Now there are 2 or 3 more teams planning on showing up for 2012. I don't know if people remember, but there was a time were almost 40 cars would show up for a F1 race. Now they limit the fields and have the 107% rule. Still does not mean a rookie could not get lucky and bump a veteran...

ChrisZ

[cdh]

We can add the New Hampshire wet restart to the list of poor race control decisions.

_____and who knows what the conditions were in race control?

"Despite almost every driver complaining that the track was too wet, IndyCar officials threw the green flag on the 217th lap. Almost immediately, Danica Patrick spun, triggering a multicar accident that swept in Power."

I guess I wasn't clear -- imo a formula car has a single seat, open wheels and an open cockpit and I want nothing to change there. Racing is dangerous, that wont change without transforming it into something completely different, I have no desire to see that. Ovals should remain part of the series...big ovals, not small, high banked ones with too many cars racing flat-out 100% of the time at 220+ MPH, a tinderbox waiting for a match. Throw a big hanford on the cars. My contention is many dangerous decisions were made, some from incompetence in the tower and some from a man who said he wants to see more crashes - the same man who had never even seen a race. Not sure what the problem is here, but I wouldn't want him at the helm of the series if I were a driver.

I was asked to find the original article online - here it is - this text is exactly what originally appeared in the Vancouver Sun before the delete button was pressed. Yep, that is what Bernard said, there is no place in a series like Indycar for this kind of thinking.

Excitement sells tickets, sponsors and TV contracts, without them there is no racing, we all know that. What burns me up are people running the series who put the need for "an exciting show" over safety, and we saw that numerous times this season. A crash like Vegas was inevitable with this mind-set, spectacle over safety. There was a dearth of common sense all year and I think it falls on Bernard's and Barnhart's shoulders and this needs to be looked at very closely.

[cdh]

This rendering was done following Massa's brush with death. Just one man's study of a concept, lovely work, a lot of talent here, and fugly imo (but it would look a ton better with a full, unobstructed canopy).

I have no desire to see changes like this, it was a knee-jerk reaction to a very close call. I don't blame the car, the car defines the series. If we close in the wheels (being partially done on the rears of the new DW1 Dallara) and the cockpit, we have a sports car. I never want to see the formula car disappear, it IS racing in my book. Hell, if F cars survived the 60's and 70's, they should survive this. I'll avoid wandering into the social aspect of dumbing down everything, removing all risk from life, etc (well maybe I just did ) but I do think there is a distinct connection. We can't remove death from racing, but by making smart choices of venue, # of cars and driver qualification a lot of safety can be in the mix and still put on a hell of a show. F1 is an excellent example of changing with the times and actually improving the racing with new technology without cost to speed, excitement or safety.

[cdh]

More from Randy

"And he predicted bringing in side-by-side restarts would mean "carnage and wrecks".

"...But yesterday he said: "I am sorry if my comments are interpreted in this way. Danger has been an inherent part of the sport since 1909. "I don't know if what I said was taken out of context but, if you know me, you know where my loyalties lie. I'm very respectful to the drivers and the sport."

Pardon me Mr Bernard but you can't un-ring this cowbell.

From the same article:

"In a promotional interview for the race, driver Ryan Hunter-Reay said: "All it takes is one mistake by one driver and it could be huge consequences. This should be a nail-biter for the fans and it'll be insane for the drivers."

Hunter-Reay's words proved tragically prophetic as Wheldon was caught up in a pile-up triggered by a collision ahead of him.

Britain's former Formula One and IndyCar champion Nigel Mansell said: "In Indy racing there is simply nowhere to go. "When an accident happens, you are into the wall in a split second. To have 34 cars travelling at 220mph on a 1½-mile circuit is too many."
F1 star Mark Webber added: "The pack racing element of is particularly hazardous. "Single-seaters being that tightly packed and rubbing each other at 350km an hour — that's what they are probably going to look at."

Source - yeah, I know it's The Sun, but it had the quotes, sorry for the pic they chose.

[rcote]

Right on Doug. I feel exactly as you do about keeping open wheel and formula cars true to what they are now. Small improvments for safety can be made to cars for sure. A bigger change would be catch "glass" instead of catch "cheese grater". But MOST importantly is HOW you use the "tool" the racecar. LIke said earlier NOT in close quarters, high banked, Talledega style races/places. And most importantly not with the fate of the drivers and their environment "controlled" by either a "cowboy" seeking crashes that knows NOTHING about racing or the other, who is most certainly known to be under the influence MUCH of the time, although I respect him very much as a driver and as a person fighting some strong personal demons.

Randy has done nothing but make one BIGGER mistake after another all year long. Most only affected race results/positions/points. Many were safety issues and were just glanced over. Bottom line, I don't care how successful one is in another "arena", if they haven't actually raced wheel to wheel at least some, they have NO business pulling the strings in the day to day operations of a race series, especially at that level.

[cdh]

Thanks for the comments ORBlues - those were some terrible crashes, but being on large ovals with moderate banking, the cars have room when they need it. As you say, pilot error in most cases, and the amazing safety engineered into the cars did incredibly well in minimizing injury in most of them. The article and video you linked are fantastic, thanks for those, will repost on FB.

Thanks Roger, and I didn't mean to get down hard on Al Jr, I have no idea if his alcoholism was ever a factor, that was unfair, but it does make one wonder. I too am a fan of his, have been for as long as he's been racing. We all gave him a big second chance in 2002, but after the recent Drag racing U.I. he needs to grow up and sober up. He certainly doesn't deserve to be involved in race control until he has proven he can do that. I hope he gets the help he needs and sticks with it this time, he is better than that, my sincere wishes for his recovery.

Saying another prayer for Dan's family and friends and going to bed, I hope we continue this discussion, thanks

[cheekychica]

Slowhands asked LRR for links to articles about the Mario vs. NASCAR (Jimmie Johnson) issue. Here's what I found:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor...son/50819204/1

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...dy-car-tragedy



And here are two interviews with Mario (one from his local paper, the Morning Call) about the incident:

http://espn.go.com/racing/indycar/st...ving-yet-again

http://articles.mcall.com/2011-10-18...marco-andretti



Doug: That collage might be the best tribute to Dan that I've seen. Did you make it or find it?

[cdh]

Originally Posted by cheekychica

Doug: That collage might be the best tribute to Dan that I've seen. Did you make it or find it?

Thanks for the links Ali, and the compliment. Been thinking of cutting a short tribute video, but don't think I have it in me, and I expect we'll see them popping up in the near future. I do want to do a larger, more finished collage when I have more time, thanks again.

[KBruSBRS]

Mosley urges IndyCar to avoid knee-jerk reactions:

http://www.racer.com/mosley-urges-in...article/214812

[LimeRockRacer]

Good interview with Mario....http://espn.go.com/racing/indycar/st...ving-yet-again