Skippy Prototype Car ('05-'07): New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8: DATA ACQUISITION

[Gerardo]

Welcome to the New Skippy Car Components Survey #4 of 8, presented by Sy and myself. This week's topic is DATA ACQUISITION. Let's get right to it.

As with previous solicitations for feedback, lets keep a nice balance of positive and negative comments. Thanks so much!


2007 Skippy Car Survey #4 of 8 - DATA ACQUISITION

1. Do you want data acquisition? WHY do you want it or not want it?

2. Would you like the ability to transfer data to your laptop?

3. Would you prefer a simple data system, or a more complex system?

4. Which channels would you like to be able to analyze? You would have "speed" at the minimum. Please write what else you'd want to look at.

5. Any other comments?

This thread will be closed to further replies just before midnight on Sunday, October 22. The next topic will then be introduced.

Thanks again!

[Jisu Kim]

1. Yes. Helpful to recap each session and combine with specific data with subjective recollections.

2. Definitely should be available as an option. Maybe a USB memory stick that each driver could provide on his/her own. That way, it's optional for those who care.

3. As complex as a reasonabe budget permits.

4. Speed, Revs, brake pressure, throttle position, steering angle, lateral g's and, of course, lap and sector times.

5. The application used to analyze the data will play a big role in how useful the system will be. Great additions would be a reference lap from a tester/instructor and a clean track map.

[999]

there should be data on all cars, all the time. the base price for driving should not include getting access to it, but an upgrade charge would allow it. or, for double the upgrade fee, you can get data 'after the fact'. finally, an additional cost would allow for reviewing the data with an instructor.

For example... Oldman would never part with a nickle to see data. Some would want to see data on every run and would pre-pay. Others would not want it all the time, but would pay extra after a particularly good or bad run, to see what had gone on. I would pay even more to see how the hell lugnutz ran a 56.5 at lrp!!!!!

skippy should also work out a deal with helix for the same kind of structure... ie all races are filmed. you can pre-pay, or pay extra after the fact.

here is a question... would skip be able to review data to determine fault in an accident? might that somehow enable them to adjust crash damage liability?

[rf360m]

I agree that having data acqusition capabilities on the car would be a good thing. However, as I can't see myself using them in the near future, I would not want the cost to rise because of having them there. I race about 2-3 races a season, and therefore know that my time improvments come from having more confidence in the car, and being able to feel it better. I know I am not braking late enough for some turns, or am not carrying enough speed through the turn, etc - the instructors can tell me that, and I can see it based on the other drivers around me. So I don't need a computer to tell me the same thing.

However, for drivers who do all the races and do want to know where they can gain a little bit here of there it could be useful. So having it as an option may be a good idea. But only if it does not increase the base cost to drivers who don't want it.

[OLDMAN]

This whole Skippy racing thing is getting way out of hand. Is everybody but me going to Indy?

I miss the good ol days when it was really a lot of fun.

Ditto on Mike - 56.5! The last time I did a 56.5 I was on the Stonington High Track Team and Kennedy was president. I need a new hobby.

OLDMAN

[dlippert]

Data would be very nice to have and of much moe benefit if it could be loaded to a personal laptop. I think to be meaningful it would need brake, throttle, speed etc. I also like the suggestion of it being optional, although I think it should be included in the 2 national championship series.

My only reservation is if it will materially add to crash damage costs and perhaps make it more time-consuming to get cars back into service after crashes. The mechanics are pretty well stressed as it is.

[jcraige]

Originally Posted by 999

I would pay even more to see how the hell lugnutz ran a 56.5 at lrp!!!!!

LOL! I was thinking the EXACT same thing. 56.5? That's not all coming from a slightly later brake point in turn 1!

I think it would be nice to be able to compare braking, throttle etc. like we do it the computer car. I still look at my data output vs. Phil from those.

I love numbers, and the more data the better, but not at the expense of a significant increase in cost unless it's optional. Then again, maybe this will be a selling point to get more people on the grid.

Also, stick the "box" somewhere where it's almost impossible even for us to break it. And make a rule that if it's broken before a race, it is divine intervention. No "rebooting" the system on the grid or swapping cars. Unplug and move on.

Life is too short and we need more Memorial races!!!!

[John Greist]

I would pay even more to see how the hell lugnutz ran a 56.5 at lrp!!!!!

How much more?

Car 49 hadn't run in any earlier practice, qualifying or race before the Memorial which preceeded the Masters race where Peter did his miraculous lap. Not sure what happened to end that run at lap 4, but maybe in Hobbesian terms, "It done blowed up." All cars are equal, but some are more equal than others.

[Ricky Schmidt]

Having data provided either verbally or electronically is always a good thing when your trying to improve your skills in any competition sport.

[Mikel Miller]

Well.. there are many options here. I think the best fit would be a basic system that doesn't require a whole lot of maintenance, and is user friendly.. It could help with shifting, BRAKING, and the such, but the biggest benefit would come from drivers that are already pretty quick.

If you have data, analyzing it could be time consuming. However it would be a NICE option to have!

[jp56]

It would be a great option to have and there are some relatively inexpensive systems out there. As always we have to keep the cost from escalating but keep the value to the customer increasing. Tricky business. Personally, I think that there would be a definite increase in value to everyone with data acquisition. The more advanced you get as a driver the more value it would be to you in improving your driving techniques and in all respects it would be a great value to everyone in engine diagnostics and keeping the cars as equally powered as humanly possible. When a customer complains of an engine that is DOP, it should be a simple mater to prove it one way or another within a few minutes with data. I remember that in the Barber Dodge Pro Series this was done frequently. Everyone does it in Star Mazda daily. We would still need our valuable testers to test cars for handling discrepancies and safety issues.

Depending on the cost of the system, perhaps drivers could have “free” information on the dash like lap times, and latch speeds and charge a small fee to download the driving data like speed, brake, and throttle graph’s overlaid on a “target” lap to a memory stick. What do you think?

[Mikel Miller]

I kind of agree with jp56, but data only gives evidence of a car possibly being DOP. It's not conclusive..

the more information the better, and it would keep the testers pointed in the right direction.

[Mr.Quik]

1. I think haveing the option of data acquisition usage would be awsome, a definate concern would be as to how vulnerable the entire system is. [hypotheticly] If I were to crash hard, but opted not to have data acq. I would'nt want to pay for the damaged system. I figure if there is a place to keep the driver from harm, so is there for the box and most of its components.

2.

Though I think most of the commercial systems out there already allow that. Might be easier to let each driver who wants their data to bring their own SD-cards - just like they do now with their timers

Perfectly stated Al

3. I dont think complexity in a system would have any added benefit to the systems that are available which would do all we wanted them to. Skip Cummings actually had an excellent data system in his DP car for the CYBERTRONICS team. They had a guy who went over the laps with him, and he improved, pretty basic, but ya, some one should get a hold of him. If I had a choice, I would go with that one.

4.Speed, Revs, brake pressure, throttle position, steering angle, lateral g's, lap and sector times. Everything that an educated driver could use to improve.

5. Dont buy a bunch of used ones that have problems and were manufactured in the 80's

[John Greist]

Data are good as long as they inform rather than confusing the user. Early on, as others observe, seat of the pants plus verbal coaching is better than numbers for almost everyone. As we get up the learning curve, capability to consume and integrate data grows.

I'd favor a flexible data acquisition system, with basic elements (e.g., lap time) always on, other data downloadable to a single system so the kids will learn it and teach me.

The advantages for testers are obviously worthwhile though Mikel's caveat is helpful.

[birkmama]

I like data aquisition. The cost in comparison to the race car is not overly dramatic, and there is literally no wear and tear.

There is two things I would like to do with the data. Measure my own progress and consistency levels and compare to reference lap or laps.

It should also be in the school cars. The target group of SB is not only the elderly statesman driver but also the driving phenom kid (gee I need to post on the Johnny thread too) that is on his or her way up. In order to perform the training and education that a school is to provide, data are 21st century standard.

The data I would like to see are pretty much the same as in Going Faster. Throttle, brake, speed, time, steering input. Such a system should easily be doable in the triple digit price range.

I truly believe it can accelerate the learning curve. My example is LRP. One day I overheard someone say, that you can do the downhill flat. I could not believe what I heard, but I tried it too. That does not mean I went flat the next lap out, but that I set that target for myself and eventually hit that target.

While I agree with everyone says that this kind of teaching can be dangerous (it actually is - I once crashed a car at a press launch because an instructor had told me that turn 4 of some unnamed track was flat, but this story better be told another time), I believe that hard factual data remove some of the danger of unsubstantiated ambition and set clear targets.

Measuring target achievement is satisfactory.

I would not think that there needed to be a substantial - if any - price increase for the ability to capture and provide data to racers.

The question how to use the data needs more thought. This would be a learn as you go exercise. I think there should be a rough analysis available after practice sessions. For more detailed analysis, a dedicated instructor could be assigned to analyze individual driver's data in 10 minute or so sessions.

Again, the benefit for me is accelerated learning, which in the end will be more satisfactory and eventually lead to better and more competitive racing.

[LimeRockRacer]

Data Acquisition if kept inexpensive and on the simpler side would be great.

I am concerned that SBRS is starting to look like an A La Carte Menu that requires lots of money to have as good a dinner as your tablemates.

Part of what makes the series fun and rewarding is the ability to race fairly inexpensively on a fairly equal basis. This year in particular it seems like we are being presented with more and more options to spend more money at the weekends with the hopes of getting faster and sooner than our competitors.

It was traditionally Computer Car and Video as an option, then we had lead follow, then lead follow with radios, then radios for rent with instructor feedback for another $250 per race, now we have instructors posting their personal coaching rates on the Race Group Board, video of practice with instructor feedback..etc etc etc. Where does it end?

Please don't get me wrong, I want to learn as much as possible as the next guy and like having some options. I am just fearful that we are starting to lose the warm and fuzzy feeling that we have each weekend where we race to race and learn from each other. It is starting to look like a cruise I took a few years back where all they did was hawk another product or piece of art under the disguise of entertainment to drain every possible penny out of the passengers. I will never take that cruise again.

[mbell]

SB should consider offering a class that teaches data interpretation. It could either be a single class for all levels or it could be broken up into several levels (intro, intermediate, advanced) according to different levels of knowledge/experience. Also, this could be a class for anybody to enroll, not just drivers. This class might also open up a sponsorship possibility for SB to get a discount on the data systems they purchase if they agree to offer this class as an official data interpretation class of such-and-such data systems. Just throwing something out there...

[Tom jr]

I have done the computer car at 4 different tracks and would favor the option to buy the data acquisition service as I do now as it is an incredible tool.


my answers,
1) yes I would like data acquisition, see above.

2)take the info with me, on my lap tap, yes. I only wish they provided a copy of the data with the computer session and I think they should. Now You have to take notes and thats it.

3)simple or complexed? just would like what we get now in computer car, brake pressure, throttle, steering , distance, and speed.

[krs561]

Hi All, I have responded to the questions in numerical order

1. Yes, it would be great if we could access the data and interperet it for ourselves.

2. Yes, even though I do not have a laptop, I am sure that other guys do, and would like to as well.

3. As long as the data is relatively easy to interperet, then the more info the better.

4. Speed, going into corner, mid corner, and at exit of corner. Brake application in %, as well as where brake is being used. Steering input, if possible, as well as throttle %, and where throttle is being used.

5. This is great that you guys are getting input from us!!

Kevin Scott

[WatertownNewbie]

There are a couple of potential uses for data acquisition that no one has yet touched upon.

Aside from serving as a training tool, the data could also be used to analyze what went wrong during a loss of control. Perhaps a serious lift occurred. Or power oversteer. Or a brake pedal grenade. Or a pop off of the brake. Or maybe too slow a correction. Or whatever. There have been a couple of times when I went off-course and would love to know what my feet and hands were doing during the critical moments so that I might be better prepared the next time. The same applies to some of the saves that I made.

The other potential use combines the data with a video (hello CDH!). If I could have the basic data (such as throttle, brake, and steering wheel position) super-imposed in some off-to-the-side location on my race videos, I would learn even more about what I am doing, what my patterns and tendencies are, and what really happened when I actually achieved better speed.

[Racing Yoda]

Some observations from someone who started racing in the pre-data era, and who has witnessed 40 years of Skip Barber activity as competitor, instructor and coach.

Data and the ability to understand it is a usefull and necessary tool to going faster these days.

Data might confuse the beginner until he/she has mastered critical skills and first principles of the line, eyes, "the proceedure" and basic braking and shifting skills.

Basic data like revs and speed have always been available and should be.

SBRS coaches are in the best position to suggest to a new or experienced competitor when he/she is ready to begin using data.

Coaching is the big difference between SBRS and most other learning programs. Observation provides big insight into what drivers are doing in the car, and when they'll benefit from data.

More complex data should be available and be integrated into the curriculum at the appropriate point for each driver. Some are ready for it in their ADV-2 or lapping day, some aren't ready (can't yet benefit) until their 10th race weekend.

A class and booklet on data, its interpretation and its uses should be available to our competitors and the competitor has the final decision on when he/she wants to start using it....just like private coaching, radio coaching, lead follow, etc.

Data is, after all, just another tool.

Speed costs money....how fast do you want to go?

[John Greist]

Thanks Bob. You're sure describing my experience and progression - which at times has been a series of lateral arbesques.

[PT Cruiser]

For me, by far and away the most useful data is to be able to lay the speed trace from my best lap in a given session on top of the speed trace of the best lap of the fastest driver in the same session, so I can see exactly where I am losing my time. Additional information such as steering input, brake levels, and throttle position are nice, but I would rather have a system that reliably gives me the speed trace vs. one that gives me all of the other channels when its working, but is also out of service 75% of the time.

Because track conditions change over the course of a day, comparing my best lap to a target lap set by an instructor at 8:30 in the morning is better than nothing, but not nearly as good as making the same comparison against the fastest lap that was recorded among all of the drivers that were out during my session.

As such, it seems to me that the real trick if data acquisition were to be built into all of the news cars would be to devise a process that:

1. Provides a quick and foolproof method to harvest data from all of the cars that ran in a particular session as soon as they returned to the pits. This process would have to be sufficiently quick such that it would not lengthen the turnaround time between groups, and sufficiently simple so that someone trying to do the job in a hurry would not be prone to mistakes that lead to loss of data.
2. Makes each driver’s data –along with at least one useful target lap from the same session-- readily available for download to a PC or PDA (provided by the driver) shortly after each session ends so that drivers have ample time to review their data prior to the start of their next lapping session. The download process needs to be pretty quick so that if all 15 drivers in a group are interested in data, no one driver would be stuck in line for half an hour waiting to get it.

For example, if each car had an easily removable flash memory card, a mechanic could walk the line at the end of each session, extracting the card from each car that ran that session, and replacing it with another. The cards with data would then be taken to hospitality, and loaded into a computer system there. Ideally, each car would automatically include its car number in each data file that it creates, eliminating the need to make a special effort to keep track of which card came from which car, or which file corresponds to a given driver. Once all of the cards for a given session had been loaded, a program on the computer would find the fastest lap among all of the cars participating in that session, and would create an extra file with this data (better yet, this file would contain the fastest lap from each car that participated in the session, as well as the fastest lap recorded all weekend). Drivers would then show up at hospitality with a memory stick, enter their group and car number into the computer, and would have their own data file, plus the extra file with the fastest lap data for their session, automatically loaded into their memory stick. (Alternatively, the computer in hospitality could be connected to a wi-fi network, so that any driver in the vicinity could gain access to the server and download data right off the bat). CD-ROMs preloaded with the requisite analysis software would also be available in hospitality, so that new drivers could load this software onto their computer at the time they download their first data file.

Ideally, drivers would pay a one time fee for the analysis software (to cover licensing fees to the company that wrote the software), but would then have access to their data following each session at no extra charge.

The test drivers could also use the fastest lap file from each group as a way of searching for cars that are either abnormally fast or abnormally slow, although inability to tell whether a car that appears fast was in fact drafting at the time could cloud the issue.

[dalyduo]

The logistics of replacing 12 - 18 memory cards per session could prove problematic... If you could Bluetooth or IR download the data from each vehicle wirelessly then it might be possible to process it that way but in all likelyhood we'd provide our own memory cards and individually download it into our own copies of the software.

[rf360m]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

... in all likelyhood we'd provide our own memory cards and individually download it into our own copies of the software.

I agree that this is probably the fastest, simplest and least expensive way. If you want the data it would be your responsibility to buy a memory card and the software app and provide your own pc. Then when you get in the car you'd insert your memory card which would clear the previous lap times and start recording new ones.

The mechanics already have enough to do to have to go around and change memory cards.

I also think that having bluetooth or IR will just add to expense fopr something that isn't really necessary. (Why not have car to pit telemetry so that our 'pit crew' can analyze it during the session and tell us through the newly added pit to car headsets where we can go faster?) So I'd stick with the basic, simple memory card.

But I'd only do any of this if it didn't add any cost. I think that 90% of the drivers will benefit more from simple track time rather than looking at graphs etc.

[John Greist]

Bravo Peter! Simple, relevant, feasible - especially with Pat's Bluetooth or IR download capability. I'm with you: tachometer and lap times on the display (with warning lights for engine temp and oil pressure); downloads of laptimes and speed traces for the session (all laps in sequence) plus trace of the fastest lap of that session. Your point about changing conditions making fastest lap of the day less valuable, but OK if easily done. Way down my list would be braking, throttle, steering, etc.

You even proposed sensible pricing. Well done.