To Sportsman or Not To Sportsman

[cdh]

Some may think my motivation for this thread is the fact I will be racing in the Championship group this year, and that is true to some extent. I find the two categories are way out of balance. Look at the trend over the last few years, Sportsman groups have come to dominate every race weekend, to the point of strangling Champ to a single, low car count group. This is not how it was only a few years back.

I am not an old timer at SB yet (in experience that is) but I started when there was no Sportsman, everyone raced in one category. However, since there were 4 or 5 race groups, SB did a good job of grouping together drivers of similar skill levels so you would always (hopefully) have drivers to race with, it worked pretty well. Sure there were times I ended up lapping on my own, but those were the exception (and more motivation to improve).

Racing with Champ drivers offers opportunities you don’t get in Sportsman, namely observing the racecraft of drivers with superior skill, getting lead-follows of a sort in every session, every race. In trying to keep up with a faster driver once passed, you can observe their technique, brake points, lines through corners, turn in points, entry speed, etc. Believe me, following someone as experienced as Chris Willcox or Dick Lippert can offer a ton of "free lead follow" experience, your lap times definitely improve more quickly.

When I was in my first (and only) full season in 2002 I recall lamenting to Gerardo "I don’t have a chance against these guys, I’ll never see a podium, blah blah blah". Wrong, P3 at LRP that summer (thank you rain). If you are a Master, there is the possibility of a P1 trophy in every race, and I saw a couple of those that first year, it’s not as gloomy a prospect as some believe, as long as there are enough drivers in Champ.

This brings me to the point of this thread. Should SB add written rules defining when a driver must move up from Sportsman? Could be after a win or two or to my way of thinking, based on lap times. Your average lap time = X therefore it’s time to move up. The intention is positive, to improve driver skills more quickly and increase the number of Champ groups. With more groups and larger fields of more varied drivers, Champ would be less intimidating, more fun and offer closer racing. As it seems to be going, Champ is getting smaller, definitely not a good trend.

There are many sides to this that fog the issue. If one driver dominates his/her Sports category every race but wants to compete for that Championship, should that not be allowed? I say no, not if that driver completely outclasses the other Sports drivers. This question would not exist if there wasn’t a Sportsman Championship, only offer trophies, no points. You want to run a Championship season? Well, let’s see, where might that be? Maybe in the Championship Group?? That may not be realistic, but I believe some changes are necessary to keep the Champ group strong, get it back to the level it used to be.

and that’s all...

[rf360m]

I think for the most part the drivers are in the correct groups. I race in the sportsman group, and don't feel like i'm being blown away by people who should be in the championship group.

However, I do think that last year there were a couple of drivers that were in sportsmand who should have been in championship mainly because they would consistently win by quite a large margin. If it was me I would move up just because I'd want the challenge. What's the point of winning if the group you are in is not as fast as you, and you have the opportunity to race faster drivers. Of course if yuo are blowing everyone in the championship group away, well then that's great!

I could see SB implementing something like if you race the full season then you are in the championship group, everyone else is in the sportsman group. Or if you win more than 4 races in sportsman in a year then you have to move up to championship.

[dalyduo]

New Rules...

All racers named Chris Brassard, Nick Spencer, Harsha Sen and Luca Orlandi are hereby nominated for advancement to Champ group!

All those in favor say Aye!.... AYE!!!

All those opposed Nay!... nay

The aye's have it and those four drivers are now in Champ group...

As Murray Marden recently imparted :Welcome: to hell boys.

OK I'll be almost serious for a moment. I went back and forth on moving to Champ group until this most recent visit to Sebring where virtually all of the instructors hinted or outright demanded that I either move to Champ group or have the seldom advertised but always appreciated heart to heart with Terry Earwood on the craft and merits of sandbagging. :- )

Because I never run a full season I was concerned that the lack of seat time and speed would lead to frustrating races as a back-marker or mid-packer in Champ.

It remains to be seen what the real experience will be but I'm convinced it's time to move up. Running in the memorial at Sebring clarified why. In that race I started mid-pack and was under constant pressure both to keep up with the leaders and hold back guys like Gerardo Bonilla behind me. (It took him all the way to turn 10 of lap one to motor by. ) I immediately appreciated the difference in a tougher race environment. My mistakes didn't come back to me. In Sportsman I could make huge mistakes and still run people down and easily do well. In Champ group the racers are much stronger technically and make fewer mistakes. In that tough crowd I'm now the easy pickin's.
I didn't realize how little I was being challenged until I got taken out behind the shed and given a good whoopin' by those Memorial drivers. It was suddenly clear the only way to really get better would be running with the big dogs in Champ group.

What we need now are more half-fast racers like me to properly fill out the Champ group fields and continue the fun we've all been having at the front of the Sportsman field... If Doug Harrison wants to give me a lead follow I'm happy to take him up on it.

Come on Nick, Chris, Harsha and Luca... Boggity Boggity Boggity... Lets go racin' boys.

(PS) There are many other drivers who should be nominated, I chose these suspects because they've either been in Sportsman waaaayyy too long or have shown speed and talent that needs to be further challenged.

[PT Cruiser]

This is a tough issue. All new drivers improve with seat time, but at some point, we all plateau. If you are lucky, you plateau at the limits of the car, and can compete for wins at the championship level. If you are not so lucky (like yours truly), you peak out somewhat below that level. At the Sebring weekend that Pat Daly describes, I got down into the low 2:28s, which was at least a second faster than the best anyone in any of the sportman groups could do. And yet, my best finish in either championship race was a 6th or 7th; confronted with Ricky Taylor running off consistent 2:27.5s, and 4 or 5 others going almost as fast, the podium was solidly out of reach the entire weekend. As it has been in every other championship group race in which I've run.

I agree that you will learn faster in the championship group, but it is also true that some guys will move up from sportsman, and never see another podium as long as they live. Seems such folks should be able to enjoy winning a few races in sportsman before being cosigned indefinitely to mid-field hell in championship.

So, I would definitely agree, if you win a championship in sportsman, you should be forced to move up. Or maybe the 4 race win limit that Pat is suggesting makes sense. Beyond that, I'd be inclined to let people decide on their own when to be thrown to the wolves.

I actually like CDH's proposal that sportsman racers would get trophies, but would not run for a separate championship -- and would get lower points towards the overall championship than people who run in the champ group.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by PT Cruiser

....but it is also true that some guys will move up from sportsman, and never see another podium as long as they live.

If new rules pushed a lot more people into Championship, the resulting increase in the number of Champ races would improve your odds for a podium. Hey, I drove like crap in 2002 (which is painfully obvious in an old race video of mine ) and I got a P3. Remember, anything can happen out there, never give up!!!

Thanks for your thoughts PT, good stuff (and BTW, you are quicker than me, but I look forward to some good racing with you this year)

[AlDelattre]

Great thread -should inspire lots of (emotional) debate, since there is no "right" answer and any changes to the current world will result in someone screaming...

My $0.02....(as a perpetual non-podium sportsman guy...), with some West Series bias

1. If I recall right, every weekend this year (and last) has been one champ group and 2-3 sportsman groups.
2. Our West champ group has a core group of fast guys - Tom Roberts, Tim Traver, Jeff Kaiser, the occasional Dom Bastien...however, we seem to always have some new superstar (Alex Rossi, Goring, etc) who runs away with it....and if Roberts can'd podium, what chance is there for us backmarkers?
3. In the Sportman groups, I'm not sure how Randy Buck picks the groups, but they are pretty well balanced -some fast guys, some middle, some new/slow. I would say that on most weekends, you could compare one sportsman group against the other and they are pretty fair mixes....(I'm assuming that's the intent...)
4. However, I often wonder if TO GET BETTER RACING - instead of a parade - we should group people by average times in qualifying - eg faster with faster, slower with slower.
5. I recognize everyone does this for different reasons - some for a career, some for ego, some for trophies, some just for fun (i.e me). I know last year when Randy tried to juggle the groups, there was an outcry from the ego/trophy seeking crowd ("there are too many fast people in this group!"). I would go for the closer racing, myself.
6. I agree that running with the fast guys is GREAT in terms of decreasing lap times and learning - IF I can keep up for long enough! (I'll run a champ group extra practice every now and then for additional education and humility).

[Racing Yoda]

I wasn't going to offer this suggestion right now, but there seems to be so much interest in the subject, I've decided to throw it out.
It may be too late to implement for the East and Midwest Series this year, but here it is:

A single championship meaning that the best (fastest) guys who run the maximum number of events will finish at the top of the points.

The objective is to get people racing with poeople of similar speed and experience while providing a system for moving them up and down from one speed level to another. The faster you get the faster are the guys you race against. It's a meritocracy.

The rules are fairly simple. but will place responsibility on both the individual driver and SBRS to get drivers into the right groups.

Weekends divided into 3, 4 or 5 groups depending on entry size.

Groups will be Championship (1 and sometimes 2)
Sportsman (A, B and sometimes C)

One difference is that, in Sportsman, you get more points the higher (faster) your group.

In Championship, if there are 2 groups needed, the points will be the same in both.

Point system - the higher (faster) the group the more points. Perhaps Dom or someone with higher math skills, can offer a points scheme. It could be something as simple as the current Championship/Sportsman points with 80% for B and 60% for C Sportsmen.

An important difference is that if you podium (top 3) in your Sportsman group twice in a weekend, you move to the next higher Sportsman group for your next weekend.

If you finish in the bottom three in your Sportsman group twice in a weekend in your group, you will be moved down to the next slower group.

A driver can initially request a placement in a group (either Championship or Sportsman A,, or C, but if his speed is well above that group, SBRS may elect to move him/her up. Those who do not request placement in a specific group, will be assigned by SBRS.

If you finish in the bottom 3 of the Championship group, you may move down to Sportsman A.

Years ago, many more drivers ran the entire season, and a system like this might have been even more relevent under that scenario. That said, this system should get drivers racing with others of comparable speed, and help them progress by raising the bar as they get faster.

With a single unified Championship, we could add year end awards to recognize those who make big progress during a season, have a couple of great isolated weekends. Least crash damage per point, etc. The mind bogles at the possibilities.

I offer it for your consideration and discussion. I'm sure I haven't thought of every permutation, but like any system, it's only as good as the people who run it....both drivers and SBRS.

I'll check back before I leave for VIR to see what you think.

[John Greist]

Wow Bob! Yes! Probably too late for this year, but astute and feasible for the future.

[cdh]

I was just talking to Ashlei JuicyGirl and she pointed out another reason to race in Champ (or doing away with Sportsman). It's fun being able to say you've raced with Viso, Matos, Allmendinger, Andretti, Edwards, Patterson, etc.

SB trains so many drivers that go on to pro series, there's always a chance you'll be racing against future pros
(hello Taylor boys ).

[OLDMAN]

A few years ago I was in a group with Marco Andretti. I showed up at LRP on Thursday, he was there on Monday doing multiple sessions. I had nothing for him, he lapped me before the session was over. It was not fun, and nobody really cares they I was ever on the track with him.

More recently I was racing in a Sportsman group with Chris Wheldon (among others). He and I swapped our positions 6 times fighting for a podium. It was great fun, I have both videos, and every so often I drag them out and enjoy the day again.

If I could do either event again, I would choose Wheldon over Andretti.


OLDMAN

[rf360m]

Originally Posted by OLDMAN

A few years ago I was in a group with Marco Andretti. I showed up at LRP on Thursday, he was there on Monday doing multiple sessions. I had nothing for him, he lapped me before the session was over. It was not fun, and nobody really cares they I was ever on the track with him.

More recently I was racing in a Sportsman group with Chris Wheldon (among others). He and I swapped our positions 6 times fighting for a podium. It was great fun, I have both videos, and every so often I drag them out and enjoy the day again.

If I could do either event again, I would choose Wheldon over Andretti.


OLDMAN

I absolutely agree. I don't care about racing professional drivers because I won't be able to race them. They'll blow me away. I'd much rather say I had a great battle with a fellow amateur racer than watch some professional driver with years of experience drive off into the distance.

Keep the sportsman group for the occasional racers, and have the championship group for the full time racers.

[Mopar92]

Back before we did the sportsman thing, we just had a single point system and the new guys went into 1 group to keep them from getting "slaughtered". Also, there were some guys who did the whole series, and would be sportsman guys today and would appreciate the old way. I think the full series "sportsman" guy who ran well and stayed on the track would place well. Sadly, that guy can't get full points in the sportsman group. I say go back to the old way and put new guys in 1 group so they have a playmate the first race.