Skippy Prototype Car ('05-'07): Skippy Components Survey #6 of 8 - IN-CAR VIDEO - Team Juicy Racing's Racing School and Race Series Forums

Gerardo · #1 10-31-2006

Welcome to the New Skippy Car Components Survey #6 of 8, presented by Sy and myself. This week's topic is IN-CAR VIDEO. Let's get right to it.

As with previous solicitations for feedback, lets keep a nice balance of positive and negative comments. Thanks so much!

2007 Skippy Car Survey #6 of 8 - IN-CAR VIDEO

1. How do you like the current in-car video offerings by Helix In-Car Camera? Any suggestions for improving the product as it is now?

2. Have you used in-car video for more than just entertainment purposes? For example, have you used it to self-critique your races or practices?

3. Would you pay extra to have an instructor or a coach sit down and debrief you with your video?

4. Any other comments?

This thread will be closed to further replies just before midnight on Monday, November 6th. The next topic will then be introduced.

Thanks again!

OLDMAN · #2 11-01-2006

I would like to have the instructor radio banter over the top of the video.

OLDMAN

rf360m · #3 11-01-2006

1. How do you like the current in-car video offerings by Helix In-Car Camera? Any suggestions for improving the product as it is now?
I think this is the best learning tool for racing (not out-right lap times). It allows you to review the race in detail to see what you could have done better. I suggested to Mike that he put all the cars with cameras from a single race on one DVD. That way he could ship out a single DVD to all customers of a race, so it would be cheaper for him to make. In conjuntion with that I suggested that the 'angle' feature of DVDs should be used to allow you to flip from camera to camera and see the race from any care you wanted. This does mean that the editing would be a bit harder as each car's video would have to be synched together.

2. Have you used in-car video for more than just entertainment purposes? For example, have you used it to self-critique your races or practices?
All the time. The main reason I get them is to see where I could have improved. Also I review them before returning to the track as it helps me remember the line, braking, gearing, etc. It is also fun to show to other people as well, but for me that's not the main focus.

3. Would you pay extra to have an instructor or a coach sit down and debrief you with your video?
No.

4. Any other comments?
Nope.

birkmama · #4 11-01-2006

I like Helix' services a lot. The last thing you want to have on your mind before strapping in is to figure out why there is no video signal. I also think they do a good job editing e.g. ffwding pace car laps.

I usually sit down with my lap time sheet in order to understand what worked and what didn't. It is a good helping tool and re-hammers home the point that slow is fast - sorry for sound too much like Randy Probst.

Depending on the data capturing system I would like to use video/data coaching but I am not sure that it should be at an extra price. Systems like x3 run at $3000 and include several video cams plus data capturing.

With more and more emphasis on analytical vs. gut learning I believe it would be a wise investment for Skip Barber to equip the race car fleet with it.

The overall pricing model is something that deserves a separate discussion.

If you put down $4K for a race weekend, it is always weird to be charged "extra" for these minor incidentals. With the demographics of the target group being what they are I would assume that a flat rate price would work better for most as opposed to pick all the extras from a Chinese menu.

PT Cruiser · #5 11-01-2006

How do you like the current in-car video offerings by Helix In-Car Camera? Any suggestions for improving the product as it is now?

No, the product seems pretty good as is.

Have you used in-car video for more than just entertainment purposes? For example, have you used it to self-critique your races or practices?

The fact that you don’t get your video until weeks after a race weekend is over limits its utility as a learning tool. I sometimes find it useful to review race tapes to better plan out race strategy for my next visit to a particular track – i.e. where is the best place to position oneself on the first lap of a race to maximize passing opportunities and minimize the chances of getting balked so that 5 people steam by you on the next straightaway. As for improving my lap times, I haven’t found the videos all that helpful. When I carefully compare my in-cars from a particular track to those of a really fast driver –such as Jason or Bobo-- at the same venue, I find that I’m almost always turning in, apexing, and tracking out at all of the right places, it’s just that the fast guys are carrying more speed into any given corner than I am while using exactly the same line. They are faster because they have a better feel for the tires’ limit of adhesion, which is not something you can pick up from watching a video.
Would you pay extra to have an instructor or a coach sit down and debrief you with your video?

No. I think my money is better spent on lead-follow.

AlDelattre · #6 11-02-2006

Just to broaden this out beyond Helix...

I know Mike Marino/Helix and am a customer, and I think he does a great job - as does Doug Harrison, though Doug is more the "feature film maker" and Mike is "mass market"...

Just to point out, those of us racing out West do NOT have an equivalent service - don't know about South or MidWest - but out West the "legacy" video vendor (at Laguna, mostly) is/was TERRIBLE....poor quality, poor service, you name it. I did a corporate event and in the end, I did NOT send my clients the videos since they were THAT bad...

There was a new guy/service at Miller last weekend, doing side-by-side comparos, seemed interesting, didn't see the product.

Back to this thread, I think Video is a GOOD thing - like radios, would leave the gear side to either a Helix and/or the individual, same with choice to do it or not - however, I DO think installing (standard) connections and wiring for both would save a LOT of time during changeovers - the connections tend to be the same for all the gear (unless you're using HD). Perhaps Doug could recommend a good spec.

BTW - interesting, while the rules say "video will not be used to determine crash liability", last week at Miller I think everyone that had a clevis pin break (before they went off and broke other stuff...) used video to prove it broke "on the road", not due to an off....was interesting to see Randy and Todd off to the side glaring at a 3in screen to determine WTF happened.

J Goring · #7 11-02-2006

1. How do you like the current in-car video offerings by Helix In-Car Camera? Any suggestions for improving the product as it is now?

I have never tried Helix, however I do have my own camera system and it works great. It is a JMR racing product and it is a small lipstick camera that mounts onto my helmet (not the usual rollbar cam) and it gives a better view through the corners than a rollbar cam. When you turn your head through the corner, the cam turns with you and you can develop great site pictures which is great for improving your mental imagery.

2. Have you used in-car video for more than just entertainment purposes? For example, have you used it to self-critique your races or practices?

Yes, that is all I use the helmet camera for. I do use it to show to my high school friends, but it is mainly a learning tool to go faster. It is priceless to be able to sit down and watch the session you just did. It gives you time to think about things you don't have the time to think of when you are actually driving a race car.

3. Would you pay extra to have an instructor or a coach sit down and debrief you with your video?

No, I am confident that I can instruct myself. However, I do think it is worth it for the less experienced racer, some of the things you learn from your video can not be found from general instructor feedback.

4. Any other comments?

Get a helmet camera!

Vin · #8 11-02-2006

I don't remember using Helix In-Car Camera service, so I wont comment on that.

I like having an in car camera for entertainment, and also to review my driving.

I wouldn't pay extra for an instructor or coach to debrief using it.

Normally at new tracks, I was able to talk to the guy running the Computer car, and get a video of one of the testers driving around the track. This was a GREAT tool to quickly learn a track that I had never been on before.

Have a happy. .
Vinay

LimeRockRacer · #9 11-02-2006

Mike Marino's Service is invaluable in that you do not have to worry about a thing other then getting your self in the car and look out down the track. Mike tries real hard to help and is great to deal with.

I bought my own system this year as I couldnt always get a Helix Camera and wanted to record more practice etc to learn. While I still use it on occassion I recommend Mike's service more than not.

My new camera set up cost me a race when it wasn't properly strapped on and I got black flagged.

The most important thing for me is the learning aspect. Each time I come home I can see where I could have done better and where I was getting better.

As far as the evidence for crash damage, fault etc. I think the learning aspect of seeing whether you were the bonehead that caused the incident or whether it was someone else is invaluable. Things happen fast and even our very capable and talented instructors miss what happens at times.

Mike and I experimented with front and rear cameras at LRP last month. He did a great job of inserting a picture in picture with the rear video picture in the area of the rear view mirror in the video. It is awesome. You can see all the action coming from behind as well as ahead. Next time we are going to be inserting the audio channel from the race commentary. This will make the video even more entertaining as well as a great tool for learning.

And Al, that Damn Clevis Pin problem is back again? I thought they threw out all the bad pins when we had the problem this past summer in the East. WHats up with that?

AlDelattre · #10 11-03-2006

(temporary thread hijack)

Re the Clevis pins, yeah, "it's baaaccckkk" -at least for a few people at Miller. I have not heard a fact-based response to what the cause was...however, as I said earlier, even slow MF's like me were abusing the right fronts on the curbs and divots -

I'm curious as to what the "accident investigation teams" come up with.

(returning to video thread...BTW to clarify my earlier post, when I used the term "legacy video guy" for the West, it was NOT Mike/Helix, there was some other person/team doing it over the past couple seasons. I was just informed by Dr. Cote that Mike used to do it, must have been before my time, so hopefully I didn't create any confusion)

cheekychica · #11 11-03-2006

Mike/Helix was in charge of the video/photo at Laguna as recently as 6/2003 (and possibly for a while after that, as well), when I was out there working with him. We were in the process of interviewing/hiring a new person to take over for the schools at that time. At some point, Kris Wilson (National tester) took over doing the video with a distinctly different setup than what Mike uses and was independent of Helix. I'm not sure who's doing the videos now, but for a while it was Kris.

dalyduo · #12 11-03-2006

1. How do you like the current in-car video offerings by Helix In-Car Camera? Any suggestions for improving the product as it is now?

Love Mike's service, as it and he couldn't be more user friendly. Have had a couple of failures due to fragile camera connectors not designed for harsh racing environments. Not Mike’s fault or doing.

If the cars had built in purpose built video capacity the connector issues would not be in play, the whole process would be easier and we'd have instant access to video downloading from memory cards into laptops. Even with a self-contained system Mike should be part of the maintenance/service of any on-board system because, as mentioned by others, the last thing you want to be thinking about before going on-track or after returning is the video set up. Mike and his crew are very sensitive and responsive to drivers needs.

Not everyone has the capacity to download directly or burn their own DVD and that is another place Helix would fill the gap. There are so many variants of video service possible both currently and with a new self-contained system that having a seasoned customer service rep to handle those variants is key.

2. Have you used in-car video for more than just entertainment purposes? For example, have you used it to self-critique your races or practices?

Always use it to review performance after it is mailed to me. Haven’t yet tried the instant review option myself but have witnessed the value from coach review sessions with competitors who suddenly got faster! :-(

3. Would you pay extra to have an instructor or a coach sit down and debrief you with your video?

Not in the budget for regular inclusion but would consider it when learning a new track or before a pivotal race.

4. Any other comments?

The value of video review at almost every level of the sport is a given. Few experiences, short of costly seat time, are more impact full than seeing real time replays of what worked, what didn’t work, and then clarifying the difference.

As others have suggested, in the heat of battle our memories can be selective or distracted and video evidence clarifies and illuminates without question.

Having fully supported video capacity in every new car would be an enormous added value for students, racers and the company. Any learning aid that speeds up the acquisition of knowledge and understanding will compress the learning curve and potentially reduce crash damage. If costs of the system and its management can be kept low… Everybody wins.

AlDelattre · #13 11-04-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheekychica

Mike/Helix was in charge of the video/photo at Laguna as recently as 6/2003 (and possibly for a while after that, as well), when I was out there working with him. We were in the process of interviewing/hiring a new person to take over for the schools at that time. At some point, Kris Wilson (National tester) took over doing the video with a distinctly different setup than what Mike uses and was independent of Helix. I'm not sure who's doing the videos now, but for a while it was Kris.

Wow, I am a newbie, I guess - Kris must have been before my time, too....(I know Kris, and this wasn't Kris). BTW the guy was nice enough, he just wasn't, er, competent....I wonder what Tom Roberts, Jeff Kaiser, et al think, they've been through all this.

thanks

rtsteve · #14 11-05-2006

Please, on board cameras for the lappings with sound. I can never seem to hook up a camera/rent 1 for lappings. for me it would be a must have every time out. I know they are available for races, but if you could use one during lappings it would be really kool.

gman · #15 11-07-2006

I like what Helix is offering and will continue to use it. Mike and his staff are very nice, attentive and professional and offer a very good product. With that said, there is room for improvement. Race commentary would be great, HD (as an option) would also be useful (all newer Mac computers are capable of HD playback). Having multiple camara angles would also be desireable assuming the editing is manageable (i heard this has been done in some adult films). Also, having laptimes / timers displayed on the video would be a benefit, although I don't know if they could be reset each lap.

In support of Helix, there is a good amount of post production (editing, highlights, level mixing) that goes into the final product. As long as the price for the service is in the same ballpark, I would be willing to spend a couple more dollars for the above listed options.

I think the videos are invaluable. I have made a practice to use Helix whenever they are trackside and have amassed a nice library of my races. I have always learned from them and they have made me a better driver. I would like to have instructors turning laps on the DVD as well so that I could reference a more ideal lap.

I probably wouldn't pay to have an instructor review my video b/c I would prefer to do a computer lapping session w/ hard data. I can pick up enough of what I could have done better during a race on my own. I would like to see video with the computer cars lapping again, although I am not sure if the new system supports it. With the data and video I think I would get a lot out of reviewing w/ an instructor.

I would like to see the new cars set up with video capability. From what I have seen, ~ 40% of racers get this on a regular basis. There is room to improve the quality of the video and if that can be acomplished by incorporating the system into the cars that I think it is well worth it.

I would also like to purchase a DVD (hint, hint) of instructors driving the different tracks. I would like to be able to study the tracks and visualize the line before I get there (especially w/ new tracks that I am unfamiliar with).

dlippert · #16 11-07-2006

The best video ever has to be Carl Lopez in Going Faster, "I'll pass this guy here, Oh! look at him, I'll pass that guy up here, Oops, I spilled my coffee, the car is doing thus and so, how 'bout that, I just lapped the field while talking, etc." That kind of thing perhaps suggests that it would be cool to have a library of videos to purchase with instructors doing laps and audio pointing out reference points such as brake points, brake technique, throttle pick up, gears etc. that both new and experienced drivers could use to become familiar (or re-aquainted) with the various tracks SBRS uses. One DVD could handle a bunch of tracks.

AlDelattre · #17 11-07-2006

I agree with Dick, though I would add that when I did the "live in-car coaching" with Slonaker last week at Miller, I wish we had TAPED it...

Literally, while I was a bit alone on the track, he was talking me through the turn-ins, brake points ("sofffttt release...."), etc - applied to a tape, it would really help someone master a track. I know it took 1.5 secs off my time.

While I'm not the fastest, I DO know the basics - this really got me in the zone and focused. Heartily suggest you guys try it - since it's on a dedicated radio frequency, you can overlay the audio. I also agree - the videos they used to have on teh website were actually good with the voiceover...

dalyduo · #18 11-07-2006

Agreed on all counts re: DVD's with talking points of reference with one caveat... If and when the new car comes along the clock gets reset and all the nuanced reference points for the R/T's will be moot. Nice problem to have but before you create or go out and buy the R/T DVD with track comments realize you are probably doing it as a memento of history.

Of course if the new car doesn't come along... please disregard previous message.

John Greist · #19 11-07-2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalyduo

Agreed on all counts re: DVD's with talking points of reference with one caveat... If and when the new car comes along the clock gets reset and all the nuanced reference points for the R/T's will be moot. Nice problem to have but before you create or go out and buy the R/T DVD with track comments realize you are probably doing it as a memento of history.

Watching Bordais under Billy Mitchell Bridge at Road America mid September, it was striking how similar his best-in-class line was with the best-in-class RT-2000 line of the National Kids. Braking points different, but radius is radius. We can always learn from good in-car.

Gerardo · #20 11-07-2006

This post will close this thread.

Thank you all for posting your comments about In-Car Video. Here is a brief summary of your thoughts.

1. Many suggested overlaying the instructor radio commentary on the in-car video.

2. Many supported the use of video as a training tool.

3. A few did, but most did not feel paying extra for an instructor to review their video was valuable to them, preferring instead lead-follow, computer car, or just more lapping. I will wonder out loud, however, how many have actually done a formal sit-down video coaching session?

4. Several suggested having standard connections on the car (similar in concept to the in-car radio thread) for easy installation.

5. Many of you said positive things about Mike Marino's Helix service. Some of you suggested ideas for improvement, such as overlaying audio or data information, or using multiple camera angles. Many of these ideas may require more post production work, which could affect cost.

6. Some suggested having a DVD with many of the tracks Skip Barber uses, with video of instructors driving with commentary describing techniques for that track.

I added the question about sitting down with an instructor to debrief your video to gauge the interest. I was surprised to see little interest. Although many of you have not tried a sit down with an instructor, perhaps take a moment and speak with drivers who have done this type of coaching with Rob Slonaker or myself. It's not necessarily better than Computer Car or Lead Follow, but its another tool that might work for you. You'll have to try it for yourself to really know. A good coach can really dig deep into your video.

Thank you all once again for your comments on the In-Car Video survey. Stay tuned for Survey #7 of 8!