Tall Drivers

[Tony Natale]

Hi. I'm hoping to learn how tall drivers deal with a couple of issues. I'm 6'3" and have driven two race weekends.

First, in reading through the HANS Device discussions, some say there are problems with their fit and comfort on tall guys, that it cants your head forward so you're looking too far downward and that the safety harness is prone to slipping off. That said, most seem to agree on the merits of getting one and that for the Skippy cars, a model 30 is the best angle to get. As it is, when I have the seat set on the last notch my head is tilted forward - - even when I've removed the head rest. Comments or suggestions?

In Sunday's Group 3 race at Mid-Ohio, I was given a car at the last minute whose interior seemed to be too small. When I had my foot on the dead peddle, the top of my knee was jammed against a cross bar and protruding bolt and even after adjustment was at best awkward and confining. A couple of times, my foot got stuck, too. Ditto on the right foot controls. Can't the controls be set up better? Other Skippy cars were better but still restrictive around the knees, legs and feet. I've sat in the new prototype and these problems were even more pronounced. So, how do other tall guys deal with these "fit" issues? Stevie D?

[rf360m]

I know exactly what you are talking about. I am 6'-4" (and a half to be exact!) and can just barely fit in the car. I find that certain cars are a bit bigger than others. I always take my time to get the pedals adjusted so that the gas is as far towards the front of the car as possible. Then I adjust the brake accordingly. I also usually have to move the clutch a little bit farther towards the front of the car as I find that it is easier for me when I can just slide my foot from the dead pedal to the clutch pedal. The mechanics are great at performing these pedal adjustments. Even with all that it is a VERY tight fit. My knees are right up against the cross bar below the steering wheel.

Because of this I am probably not tightening the belts as much as some people because that pushes me back into the car making it difficult to drive.

I also use a HANS device. Because I am in a more upright position than most drivers I think the model 30 is not the perfect angle, but since they don't make a model 28, it will have to do.

I haven't been in the new car yet so I can't comment on that. But what I would love is a few more inches in the foot well. I tell the skippy people that at every race. Hopefully they will incorporate that into the new car.

[rf360m]

a couple more things.

I don't use a fitted seat as a lot of drivers have, just a couple of peices of foam on top of the regular seat, as the seat would take up too much room.

Then I also try to be in as upright a position as possible. This helps avoid the feet getting stuck, which would be bad going from gas to brakes!

[999]

Donald MacDonald had a special seat made. I think the actually cut the bucket out of a Skippy seat. He was thrilled.

[dalyduo]

That's exactly what they did and the seat is still around. I saw it at LRP in July... I think they keep it in the mechanics trailer.

[macdod]

From the TeamJuicyRacing Classics Archive...

Truth be told the HANS is a misery in the Skippy car if;

1. Your chest is bigger than a size 40 and/or
2. The top of your shoulders are ABOVE the seat belt anchors in the car.

Both allow for belt travel (especially after a lap or two at speed) that the yoke on the HANS device can't tolerate - causing them to slip off. Guys have tried velcro, bungee cords, and even taping channels on the outside of the yoke to keep the belts centered on top of the chest portion of the yoke. But I wouldn't recommend any of those techniques as they impead your ability to quickly exit the car. I used Sy to help. He would cinch me into the car like a white-tailed deer strapped to the roof rack of a '74 Grand Cherokee. The bad news was my eyes would water from the pain but the good news was the tears kept my contact lenses from drying out.

But worst of all is if your Skippy seat is all the way to the back of the cockpit. The HANS upright behind your helmet doesn't have enough room and makes contact with the rollbar frame and pushes your head forward in a sensation much like being facemasked by Ty Law. The really bad news is it's hard to keep your head up. Your eyes naturally drift down into the cockpit (aptly named) and you find yourself staring at your groin - which is actually the good news because when you hit the wall head on you will be able to kiss your balls goodbye alot easier - hense the benefit of the HANS device.

[rf360m]

I have never had a problem with the belts slipping off the hans device. I do have a new one with the lip on the edge and the anti-slip surface, though. As for having your head pushed forward a bit, I do find that, but have not found it to be much of a problem.

In any case I'd love it if the cars could be a bit longer, just a couple of inches would be fine. I wonder why the cars aren't a bit longer anyway? More and more pople are taller now, and as this is an amateur series it seems odd that they couldn't find a solution that allows the cars to be a bit longer. Would that make that much difference to handling or something? I hope that they are taking this into account with the new cars.

For me the tight fit of the car does cause me to lose a bit of confidence in the car, which isn't great. I'd love to be in the car and have room to move my feet!

[AlDelattre]

I'll weigh in here (pun intended).

I'm 5'10", 245 and wear a 52 or 54 jacket....I'm a fireplug and have the Marine Corps and 13 years of rugby to blame, let alone genetics easily traceable to a Gorilla.

I have trouble fitting into a Skippy car - not the length, not the hips/gut, but the shoulders....literally, in a "standard seat" my shoulders were pinched so bad I could not steer...in the school car, I'm a half-body guy (so much for looking cool)

So, the West Coast mechs took a standard seat, cut the bottom out, and shifted the front anchors a bit - so, I sit lower in the car (ass low, knees/legs a big higher) so my shoulders fit...

A few of the taller guys have tried it out, and it helped - basically makes the car effectively longer, some had knee issues w/the crossbar, but it allowed some to move the seat at least one position forward...

I have had HANS issues, partially due to the seat being all the way back, also due to having a 20 inch neck (see Gorilla reference above). This new seat helps (somewhat). Luckily, I rarely look in the mirrors, so I don't notice it.

SBRS now has THREE versions of this seat - one is hanging in my garage (they kept losing them and had to make new ones), and the other two are in the East/Midwest parts trailers (or so I'm told). I'm sending the one I have out to Laguna since I'm doing the West series this year..

I think Donald tried my initial prototype at Vegas, and I think he liked it...

For the record, I was a test dummy for the new cars - they fit PERFECTLY....I might even need to get seat poured if we go the composite tub direction.....

[Martin Zimmerman]

Tall Drivers. I am 6' 2" and 170lbs. Inseam is 33. 35 inch arms.

I set the seat at three back from the front for an 'A', occasionally four back from the front. When this is done my wrists 'break' over the steering wheel. My Padding is old carpet foam, held together with miles of Racer Tape. $2800.00 worth. Barbara had her house carpeted, I found some good seat foam.

I find that my HANS needs to have the belts very tight to have them stay put. John Greist told me to tighten the belts, pull forward, retighten them again. Several times. Most cars that works. Occasioanally the belt falls off. Usually the right side, since most corners are right handers. I have yet to put a good no-slip surface on my HANS. This will happen before my next race weekend.

[macdod]

Try to get your hands on the seat with the bottom cut out. What you will find is that;

1. you'll be safer as your head will be lower

2. the extra distance created by lowering your hips will completely eliminate (depending on your inseam - I'm a 35"@ 6'3" and 198lbs.) your leg being jammed against the cross bar as it creates more "distance" between you and the pedals I had a religious experience the first time I got off the accelerator and went for the brake with the special seat as my thigh never touched the cross bar. What i didn't realize was that I was wasting alot of time at every braking point on track thinking about what I would do (i.e. where I would put the car), if god forbid, I didn't get my foot on the brake. Not only was it a relief not to have to jam my leg against the cross bar any more, but I had more MIPS (millions of instructions per second) to think about how to go faster (I'm not that bright obviously).

3. you will lower your center of gravity, off setting the "high mass" issue that tends to (like an inverted keel) cause the four corners of the car to rock more than your "lower" (lower in both in actual weight and location of the center of gravity) weight competitors. The effect of this is real (which is why they don't put ballast on TOP of a race car). The result of which is that the car takes just a bit longer to settle when coming off the brakes. But having said that, the effect is MINOR. And you won't notice it till you use the other seat, but the car definitely feels stiffer when you're sitting on the bottom of it.

4. MOST IMPORTANTLY (and no one will tell you this) you are driving an UNDERSTEERING race car. You don't know it (cause you think it's you - and it is until you get more experience) but the combination of being heavier, sitting all the way back (in the last notch) of the cockpit, and with a higher center of gravity is a set-up issue in a Skippy car for larger drivers. Learn to compensate for it and work with your instructors to help you with techniques to get the weight forward when you need it. Don't let them tell you it's not real. IT IS VERY REAL. (if anyone gives you a hard time, send me their name). I have lap times from the same road course, in the same car, and in the same conditions with both the regular seat and the toliet bowl seat (as I call it) to prove it. In fact, the toliet bowl seat allowed me to move forward one notch in the cockpit and the result was amazing. The speed difference I could carry at turn in, by sitting on the bottom of the race car and a little more forward was noticable even without looking at the timing sheets.

5. Get the seat, relax, and go have fun.

P.S. Put a pad under your ass. Because as I said, you will be literally sitting on the bottom of the race car. If you forget, don't worry about it. The first time you smack a curb and the jolt goes straight to the top of your spine giving you one of those "lightning bolt-like" flashes in you head, you'll remember very quickly what I said about the padding.

[arig]

I'm 6'2" and wear a HANS as well. I have actually had the right belt slip off the HANS in the middle of a LRP race last year that I was leading. I tried crossing the shoulder belts. Typically, you put the right shoulder belt on 1st and then the sub belt, then the left shoulder belt. Do the left shoulder belt 1st and then sub and then the right one. This made the difference. I don't use this setup anymore b/c I put the seat in the 3 notch now. I needed to be closer to the steering wheel. Before with the crossed belts setup, I was in the last seat notch. Also, I used to take the headrest out of the car when I sat in the last notch until I crashed backwards and cracked my helmet. Now, in the 3rd notch, I use an adjustable headrest and push it all the way forward. I like it like that but I don't how it would feel for others. It pushed my head forward so I don't have to worry about holding it up. By the way, in the 3rd notch my right foot can only be on the gas or the brake. It can't be off of both. This is why I dread caution periods because my leg hurts a lot trying to hold it off the pedals.

Just to add I have a newer HANS with the lip and the anti-slip material on it and it still came off.

[L8Apex]

Nice thread, Tony. I'm 6'1" and quite boney. My arms are much longer than average and my legs seem to be a bit shorter than average. I run with the seat one notch from the back and wear a HANS model 20 (is this the wrong model for the Skippy cars???).

Even with the lip on the HANS and the sandpaper-like texture to hold the belts in place, my right shoulder harness slipped off the HANS during one of my lapping sessions. Even with the shoulder belts crossed, they still wanted to slip off the HANS. Tightening the shoulder belts only made the problem worse. I ended up using a zip-tie to hold the shoulder belts together, in towards the center of my chest. I made sure that I could easy rip it off in case I needed to exit the car quickly. While this remedied the problem, it was still a far-from-ideal temporary bandaid fix. To be honest, the way the harnesses fit (or didn't fit) over the HANS made me a bit uneasy the entire weekend.

On top of that, the HANS was digging into my neck and collarbone quite hard. I had some pretty good bruises after the first couple days of lapping. I have a relatively high tolerance for pain and normally anything that's bothering my body will go away right as I leave the pits and roll onto the track. I was "sucking it up" all week and weekend, but by the last lap on the last race on Sunday I could actually feel the pain while I was driving. I thought about taking some towels from my hotel and padding my shoulders underneath the HANS, but I never got around to it. Anyways, I'll bitch more later. For the most part, the Skippy cars are quite uncomfortable for me.

[dalyduo]

The 30 degree or "30" model is considered the right angle for Skippy cars. You should exchange your "20" model and see if that helps you any. The "20" model is more for vintage formula fords that lay you down even flatter.

[rf360m]

This modified seat sounds quite interesting. Modifying the seat this way doesn't create any sort of safety problems does it? (Not sure why it would, but perhaps the seat is designed in a specifiec way and shouldn't be changed.)

Also, why doesn't SBRS let the tall drivers know about it and offer to put it in their cars?

I'm hoping the new car will be that little bit longer and eliminate these problems.

[L8Apex]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

The 30 degree or "30" model is considered the right angle for Skippy cars. You should exchange your "20" model and see if that helps you any. The "20" model is more for vintage formula fords that lay you down even flatter.

Damn, well that's what I get for not doing my research and putting my faith in the salesman.

The 20 deg model that I have is made for more of an upright seat. It's the 40 that's made for the super reclined cars. Now that I actually did some research and understand what the number means, I can see how I'm going to be more comfortable once I get the model 30. I'm not sure it will help with the belts slipping off, but the fitment to my body should be much better when I'm seated in the car. Hopefully the shop won't have any problems letting me exchange it.

I'm going to savor the day when I have to move up in size because my neck has grown freakishly large.

[dalyduo]

I think it was initially done for a couple of customers who really wanted to race but were having serious fit issues. Not sure how many of those modified seats could be accomodated at a single race event but it never hurts to ask if you're in the "Tall Guy" category

The new car has a completely different configuration.

The carbon fiber tub will be one size fits all. (no more having to juggle 3 different chassis lengths and pedal configurations) The enclosure should be wide enough to handle people wider and taller than those currently able to drive the R/T's. The seat will not move but the entire pedal assembly will slide forward or back to suit the driver's needs. There will also likely be color coded steering column spacers so the steering wheel will sit exactly where you want it to. One size should truly fit all... wide, thin, short and tall.

Originally Posted by rf360m

This modified seat sounds quite interesting. Modifying the seat this way doesn't create any sort of safety problems does it? (Not sure why it would, but perhaps the seat is designed in a specifiec way and shouldn't be changed.)

Also, why doesn't SBRS let the tall drivers know about it and offer to put it in their cars?

I'm hoping the new car will be that little bit longer and eliminate these problems.

[dalyduo]

Sorry Chris, its been a while since I ordered mine and got the numbers backwards. Yes, you got the model for sedans, the 40 degree model is the one for especially flat vintage formula cars.

If you ordered it from HANS and were advised to get a model 20 for a Skippy car its definitely their fault and they should exchange it. The same applies if it was a 3rd party seller. If it was a 3rd party seller and they won't exchange it, tell them you are going to contact HANS directly and complain about them. If they still won't change it. Then call HANS and explain it to them. I suspect they'll help you out. Doesn't do them any good having ill advised unhappy customers.

Originally Posted by L8Apex

Damn, well that's what I get for not doing my research and putting my faith in the salesman.

The 20 deg model that I have is made for more of an upright seat. It's the 40 that's made for the super reclined cars. Now that I actually did some research and understand what the number means, I can see how I'm going to be more comfortable once I get the model 30. I'm not sure it will help with the belts slipping off, but the fitment to my body should be much better when I'm seated in the car. Hopefully the shop won't have any problems letting me exchange it.

I'm going to savor the day when I have to move up in size because my neck has grown freakishly large.

[Tony Natale]

Everyone's input has been incredibly helpful. Mille Grazie!

I'm going to put all this advice to good use soon as I just signed up for RA today.

[AlDelattre]

Originally Posted by rf360m

This modified seat sounds quite interesting. Modifying the seat this way doesn't create any sort of safety problems does it? (Not sure why it would, but perhaps the seat is designed in a specifiec way and shouldn't be changed.)

Also, why doesn't SBRS let the tall drivers know about it and offer to put it in their cars?

I'm hoping the new car will be that little bit longer and eliminate these problems.

According to the SBRS guys (and mechs) the seat they did for me that inspired the "ass-less" seats were the first ones they tried. For safety reasons, you cannot use a half-seat in an R/T (which achieves the same thing) because the half-seat is not anchored in front - so in a bad rear-ender, your body would crush the fuel tank (and rupture it) and/or in a hard nose-in there is only your sub belt restraining your forward movement...

So, no safety issues using the seat they designed for me, and yes, there are several of them around, IF they can find them. I know that my name was written on the bottom of each seat, so just ask the mechs (the East or West guys) for my seat and try it.

[John Greist]

Quote Pat Daly: The carbon fiber tub will be one size fits all. (no more having to juggle 3 different chassis lengths and pedal configurations)

I believe the present school cars and RT-2000s are all identical in chassis/wheelbase/overall length, with A, AS and XS configurations determined by pedal slide placement.

Regarding tall drivers, I think Dirk Daems has a pedal adjustment that gives him extra leg length without having to modify the seat. I know I can't reach the pedals in his car and I'm 6 ft. but can also drive an AS. Watching Jim Pace squeeze into an XS for testing is amazing.

[dalyduo]

Thanks for the clarification John.
Even if the chassis are all the same and only seat and pedal config determine fit, the new chassis should still be better because the driver center of gravity will not shift forward or back with differing driver sizes.

Overall fit could be more satisfying across the board

[John Greist]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

Thanks for the clarification John.
Even if the chassis are all the same and only seat and pedal config determine fit, the new chassis should still be better because the driver center of gravity will not shift forward or back with differing driver sizes.

Some of us, as MacDod, have been manipulating this weight changer and will miss the unfair advantage.

Overall fit could be more satisfying across the board

Hope you're right - could be even more procrustean.

[Gerardo]

I also anticipate the seat location to be consistent, with the advent of a quick and fully adjustable pedal rack (likely with the master cylinders moving together with the rack). Some of you had a good look at this concept on the prototype cars.

With the seat location consistent, and proper belt anchor points for the HANS, getting a proper fit should be easier and more comfortable for all.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by John Greist

Hope you're right - could be even more procrustean.

procrustean, I had to look that one up John, good word, fully expected to see an image like this...



but learned the definition is;

ADJECTIVE: Producing or designed to produce strict conformity by ruthless or arbitrary means.

ETYMOLOGY: After Procrustes, a mythical Greek giant who stretched or shortened captives to make them fit his beds

I don't think we want management pondering stretching or shortening drivers to fit race cars.

[John Greist]

I agree Doug - Procrustean tactics won't work.

Despite occasional jibes, I believe senior management is intent on finding solutions that will solve problems for them and us so that this exceptional enterprise will continue, grow and prosper. Listening to, hearing and understanding all involved, especially the long term Skippy stalwarts, gives them the best opportunity to succeed.

[Tony Natale]

Al: I'll be on the lookout for the seats you mentioned. Thanks for the info.
> Tony

[AlDelattre]

Tony there should be 2 seats somewhere around Lakeville, plus the one in my garage. I am planning on being up at LRP for the last weekend, but to be safe, you might want to have your CSR make sure one of the extra seats is 1) located and 2) brought out so you can get at it easily.

Steve Kunsey from SBRS is my CSR and knows ALL about it, so if you need, have your CSR ping Steve for some help.

hope it works!