Left-Foot Braking

[WatertownNewbie]

Thanks, Sy, for the book references. I have completed the two Ross Bentley books and decided to try something new today. My car is an automatic transmission, so I cannot practice heel-and-toe downshifting, but I can left-foot brake. That is fun, and not too difficult to pick up (a la Bentley, I did not try to do it but instead just let my eyes tell me how much pressure to put on the pedal).

My recollection from the 3-Day is that the Formula Dodge does not have much room near the pedals, and the steering column runs between the brake and the clutch. On the R/T 2000 cars, is it possible to left-foot brake? I am thinking of something like the entry into West Bend. One of the nice things about what I did today is that there is (obviously) no delay in getting my right foot back over the accelerator. A surprise benefit is that there is also no need to rush off of the brake, so I am easing off the brake with my left foot, and that clearly can help settle and balance the car.

Anybody out there left-foot brake with the R/T 2000? At LRP?

[Duncan]

It might be possible for somebody with really small feet to left foot brake an RT, but I have size 10.5 feet and it's just never going to happen for me. Even if I could get my left foot under the steering column, there just isn't much space over there to operate both pedals well.

Unless you're driving a car when you basically never have to use a clutch pedal, I think the advantages of left food braking are pretty minimal, at least at this level of driving. Remember, if you aren't going into a turn with every last possible bit of entry speed when you're using your right foot to brake, you've got other things to do first to make yourself faster than work on making the transition from brake to gas that last little bit quicker.

[arig]

instead of left foot braking, i have used the heel/toe technique to simulate left foot braking. particularly thru 7/8/9 turns at midohio i used it a bit. the car just felt extremely stable going thru there.

[sydude]

Left foot braking is a tool of varying effectiveness depending on the car and the track. There are situations where left foot braking is essential - not only to go fast (StarMazda, oval tracks etc) but even just to operate the vehicle (karts). There are also those where it's not only an insignificant advantage speed-wise, if at all, but it's also dangerous.

It's also a skill that takes a deceivingly long time to perfect. Just like using a brake pedal with your right foot for your whole life in a road car doesn't prepare you to use the brake pedal nearly as well as you'd think with that same foot in a race car, practicing it for just a few months in a road car with your opposite foot will be even less effective. You can get a rough idea of what you should be doing, but you can only get good at using your (individual) braking foot in a race car by practicing it (a lot) in a race car. So if you're a beginning racer, you should use all of your practice time on one foot, and not on both. When you've gotten very proficient at using your right foot, you can move onto the left.

On a skippy car, 95% of drivers should only be using their right foot. Why? Primarily because of safety. As mentioned before, the skippy car has the steering column separate the clutch from the brake/throttle. You must use the clutch to get the car off the line, and then to left foot brake you have to move your left foot under the steering column to get it over to the brake pedal. I'm not sure exactly what maximum shoe size will fit under there, but I can tell you that a size 9 shoes doesn't even come close. I've tried many times in the pits, and I had to torque my foot sideways and push really hard to wedge it across. Once there, it was even more difficult to get it back. Why is this dangerous? The danger does not lie in your inability to put the clutch in if you spin - the danger is that the steering column is wedged on top of your left shin and if you hit anything on the left side of the car or in the front, you will be in trouble. You won't be able to pull it out of the way if you're about to crash.

Another problem in the skippy car is that the right side (brake/throttle) toe box isn't wide enough for two feet (size 9 and up at least). Both feet side by side on those pedals will push the right foot onto the throttle cable, and also the edges of the soles of the shoes will grab against each other constantly with independent motion.

[birkmama]

Thanks for the exploit Symaster. Left foot braking does not work in the RT2000. Not even if the left foot is your only one.

Hm, I also believe to be in possession of an M3 onboard video that proves that "the braking did not work" with same technique.

[sydude]

Originally Posted by birkmama

Hm, I also believe to be in possession of an M3 onboard video that proves that "the braking did not work" with same technique.

Yes sir, you are correct. LFB was NFG at the NBR in '04. But it did work in '05

[WatertownNewbie]

You all basically confirmed my suspicion that the R/T 2000 is not suited for left-foot braking. And my size 13 feet are certainly not going to be getting past the steering column. Do I gather, however, that the left-foot serves a purpose besides pushing the clutch pedal when it comes to particular BMW autos? So ... where are those vidoes?

[Big Sexy]

I have yet to hear a good argument for why one should left foot brake with the exception of oval tracks where you would simply get too tired moving your foot back and forth or in a turbo car with alot of lag. My 2 cents.

[OLDMAN]

Hey Big Sexy:
When you come off the gas to go to the brake the rear wheels do more of the braking then they would if you used your left foot instead (which would put most of the work on the front tires). This could make the car a little looser than it would otherwise be. This is especially true for oval racing where they do a lot of braking while entering corners.


OLDMAN

[Big Sexy]

Don't you think there is a problem with the brake bias in this case?

[Moxie]

I agree with Sy's comments about the limited applicability of left-foot braking for us non-professional racers. During a recent visit to the BAR Honda F1 factory in the UK, I was reminded how technology (in addition to car type and track type) drives this sort of thing. The clutch in an F1 car is operated by a button on the steering wheel (and in BAR's case by a Button behind the wheel) and the footwell is a two-pedal setup. The design is so tight that the driver has a foot on each pedal all the time, with no place else to move, so all braking is left-foot.

[OLDMAN]

Hey Big:
Maybe I was not clear in my explanation.

When a car is at the limit of its cornering ability the mere action of taking your foot of the gas puts a drag on the rear tires. This loosens the car. It it were possible to leave the gas alone and apply some braking with the left foot the braking would be more equal among all 4 tires (assuming the bias is correct).

Although I have no way of proving this, I feel it would be less disastrous at the apex of the downhill to touch the brake with the left foot (while leaving the gas alone) than to apply the same braking force with the rightfoot. What do you think?

OLDMAN

[WatertownNewbie]

Originally Posted by OLDMAN

I feel it would be less disastrous at the apex of the downhill to touch the brake with the left foot (while leaving the gas alone) than to apply the same braking force with the rightfoot.OLDMAN

Hey, OM, do you really brake at the apex? And not, say, just before the turn-in? Does your car ever get a bit unstable as you are heading to the track-out in the Downhill?

[OLDMAN]

Hey NewBie:
I was just trying to make a point, not tell anybody how to go through the downhill.

The only time I would even consider going to the brake at that apex is when some new guy, full of piss and vinegar, looses control of his (or her) car in front of me while going through 7.

NewBie, let me give you some advice - Be very careful in the R/T 2000. It lulls you into a feeling of security and then when you least expect it you're into the wall, expecially at LRP.

OLDMAN

[WatertownNewbie]

Originally Posted by OLDMAN

Hey NewBie:
I was just trying to make a point, not tell anybody how to go through the downhill. <snip> NewBie, let me give you some advice - Be very careful in the R/T 2000. It lulls you into a feeling of security and then when you least expect it you're into the wall, expecially at LRP.

Thanks, and your point and advice are appreciated. I actually was glad to see your response to Big. That was exactly my point when I suggested using left-foot braking to balance the car heading into West Bend without sacrificing either momentum or the brake-to-throttle transition.

As for the R/T 2000, my attitude will be cautious. For example, on the final afternoon of the 3-Day, when we had lapping, I went no faster than I had in practice and in some respects went slower. There were too many cowboys out there that day, and I was not about to do something stupid just to keep pace with them. (I suspect that some of them might in fact have braked, or at least lifted, at the bottom of the Downhill, because there were several excursions into the tire wall, including one that mangled a side pod).

My general approach is to learn the line and then practice the line until I have that part fairly solidly. As some of the books say, slow in and fast out. Exit speed is next, and combined with that I aim to balance the car before turning into a corner. That seemed to work pretty well during the 3-Day.

[birkmama]

Originally Posted by OLDMAN

When a car is at the limit of its cornering ability the mere action of taking your foot of the gas puts a drag on the rear tires. This loosens the car. It it were possible to leave the gas alone and apply some braking with the left foot the braking would be more equal among all 4 tires (assuming the bias is correct).

Although I have no way of proving this, I feel it would be less disastrous at the apex of the downhill to touch the brake with the left foot (while leaving the gas alone) than to apply the same braking force with the rightfoot. What do you think?

OLDMAN

Hi OM,

I do not quite follow your example, to be quite honest. Usually the purpose of touching the brake pedal is to reduce speed and/or change the balance of the car, right? So if you are in a situation where you need to reduce speed, you will invariably change the balance of the car.

In your example if you decide to use the brake you'd need to stabilize the car by opening your hands, since at the limit of cornering you cannot brake without actually increasing the radius, correct?

The only advantage of left foot braking is that you can hit the throttle and the brake at the same time. And other than in high pressure turbos or other engines that lag (rental go karts were mentioned somewhere here) this does not really help going fast.

And in a road car it destabilizes your body which at the same time reduces your ability to feel what the car is doing.

Another $0,02 - soon we will have collected a small fortune here.

[OLDMAN]

Hi Birk:
Are you saying that the dynamics are the same regardless of whether all four tires are slowing the car down versus just the back tires? Have you ever done any karting?



OLDMAN

[FINKLE]

Is it possible to left-foot brake in the R/T 2000's? Yes, it is. While some, usually with smaller feet, go under the steering column those with bigger feet might want to try going over the steering column. I've seen it done. It's worth a shot if you're feeling brave.

[birkmama]

Originally Posted by OLDMAN

Hi Birk:
Are you saying that the dynamics are the same regardless of whether all four tires are slowing the car down versus just the back tires? Have you ever done any karting?
OLDMAN

Yes, I have done Karting (not very proficient though, last time out, Sy AND MJ beat me big time).

No, I am not saying at all, that it does not matter where the brakes apply. In the R/T2000, however, I was under the impression that all four wheel were part of the braking system.

[OLDMAN]

Yes, the brakes are on all four tires, but the engine is just connected to the rear two.

OLDMAN

[birkmama]

Originally Posted by OLDMAN

Yes, the brakes are on all four tires, but the engine is just connected to the rear two.

OLDMAN

I see...we seem to be getting somewhere. Because, again, I can agree with you.

But since we are talking about braking, it doesn't matter where the engine is mounted or connected. As soon as you brake the car (left foot, right foot, both feet) the engine plays a negligible role.

I am looking forward to your answer but in general I think we should maybe finalize our discussions in person over a beer...how does this sound? (I am afraid we are boring everyone else...)

[CMitchell]

Okay...I'm completely oblivious to how people are driving the RTs. Do people shift (up and down) without the clutch? Do people left foot brake?

[OLDMAN]

Anyone who is left-foot braking must have some mighty small feet.

OLDMAN

[Duncan]

Originally Posted by CMitchell

Okay...I'm completely oblivious to how people are driving the RTs. Do people shift (up and down) without the clutch? Do people left foot brake?

Though my feet are too big to left foot brake in the RT, I've had cause to downshift without the clutch on occasion, and it works just fine, though I do use the clutch in that car as a general practice.

[kwlorentzen]

Originally Posted by OLDMAN

Anyone who is left-foot braking must have some mighty small feet.

OLDMAN

Sorry but, I have to throw this in here....

You know what they say about guys with small feet, and hands for that matter!

[dalyduo]

The preferred method for upshifting without the clutch is to pre-load the shift lever toward you against its return spring and then give the throttle a short quick lift. It will pop right up to the next gear.

The recommended method for downshifts is to drop the clutch, blip the throttle and push the lever away from you, dropping it down one gear at a time while you let the clutch out and get back on the throttle.

It is possible to downshift without the clutch but they don't teach or recommend it because without a very accurate blip and light touch with the shift lever, there is great potential for tranny damage.

No one left foot brakes because it is impossible to get your left foot around the steering column to reach the brake... No matter how small Keith's feet and hands are.

Originally Posted by CMitchell

Okay...I'm completely oblivious to how people are driving the RTs. Do people shift (up and down) without the clutch? Do people left foot brake?

[dlippert]

In the new car however, one can brake with either foot.

[John Greist]

Originally Posted by dlippert

In the new car however, one can brake with either foot.

That will be interesting as non karters start educating their left feet. Not sure whether it will be better to be ahead or behind tyros during that learning process - though we're perfectly capable of screwing up with right foot braking already.

[WatertownNewbie]

Originally Posted by John Greist

That will be interesting as non karters start educating their left feet. Not sure whether it will be better to be ahead or behind tyros during that learning process - though we're perfectly capable of screwing up with right foot braking already.

Someone is bound to attempt to keep it floored while dabbing with the brake for much of the phases betwen shifts. Will brake rotors now become a hot item (pun intended)?

[Gerardo]

Leaving your foot on the gas will not allow an upshift. Power positively loads the gears. Dabbing the breaks only slows the car, but positive load remains. The brief breathe unloads the gears, allowing you to change from one dog ring connection to another.

Two or three National drivers have successfully left-foot-braked the R/T, but they had years of karting experience and could shift without severe drivetrain shock. They also had small feet. Nice one Keith!!

[Vin]

When I raced the R/T 2000 cars, I used to Left Foot Brake. (I hope there aren't any mechanics reading this!!)

The trick I used was buy small shoes! I normally wear size 44 (10.5 USA) and got some 41 (I think about size 8) shoes just for racing. If you saw me race, you would have noticed that I can not walk in my racing shoes, I put them on JUST before getting in, and take them off RIGHT away! Other trick, adjust the brake full forward, and the throttle far. Makes it impossible to heal toe (can not reach the throttle even while slamming the brake) but lets your left foot overlap your right foot, with out making you push the throttle.

One problem I had with LFB on the cars, was that when you LFB, since there is a steering column in the way, it puts a sideways load on the brake pedal, and on some cars, the throttle would stick on the blips.

So, H pattern, or Sequential? I prefer H pattern for driving, and Sequential for racing. From a racing school/series perspective, I'd say DEFINITELY Sequential for cost reasons.

- A Sequential makes the 2nd to 1st or 4th to 3rd UPSHIFT impossible. This translates to less damage on the gear boxes, and a MUCH lower chance of over revving the motor.

- The way a Sequential works is much stronger than an H pattern. Why? Normally in an H pattern, the only thing that keeps the gear engaged, is the dog teeth. Once these wear down a little, the car will start "coming out of gear" when you drive it. A sequential on the other hand, can not come out of gear, unless the rotating cylinder (a rotating cylinder moves all the shifter forks) rotates. And it can not rotate, unless the gear lever is moved since there is a spring thingy that locks it in each gear (this explanation is VERY bad, but if you see it, it would make sense).

As far as putting it into reverse, I forgot how the R/T 2000 cars worked, but with the Renaults, you have to pull a cable with your left hand for Neutral and Reverse.

Have a happy. .
Vinay

[John Greist]

Vinay,

You've just gimped half the RT-2000 fields! We assumed since you drove an XS, your feet were that small. The mechanics gave you a pass on pedal adjustments as you probably had the car alone all weekend. Imagine the consternation of a right foot braker using your set up.

Great to have your detailed input on H-pattern vs. sequential shifters. I think sequential is pretty much a given, though some of us still enjoy the present school cars with their H pattern on occasions when we get a few laps in them.

[Duncan]

Originally Posted by Vin

When I raced the R/T 2000 cars, I used to Left Foot Brake. (I hope there aren't any mechanics reading this!!)

The trick I used was buy small shoes! I normally wear size 44 (10.5 USA) and got some 41 (I think about size 8) shoes just for racing...

Vinay

You've got some magical feet there! I wear US 10.5 and barely fit into my size 45 Pumas for driving. Of course, I have the problem of not being able to get my foot from one side of the steering column to the other in the R/T without getting out and getting back in, but that's another story.

[arig]

it takes some practice but i was able to do this too. it hurts a little while moving your foot but me with my size 13 shoe and long legs was able to do it. its a really tight fit though. really tight!!

[dalyduo]

Ari,
I've got a size 11 foot and couldn't get my shoe anywhere near under the steering column of an R/T so I'd love for you to show me how you get your size 13 under there in an R/T with the front body work off of it.

Even if I could, not sure I'd want both feet jammed over to the right. It would seem to make extricating yourself from the car difficult at best if you had a crash. Nothing about getting it over there or getting it back out seems easy or intuitive.

If Vinay comes back I'll also look forward to seeing him put his 10.5 foot in a size 8 shoe and wedge that clutch foot under the steering column as well.

This isn't April Fools day is it?

Originally Posted by arig

it takes some practice but i was able to do this too. it hurts a little while moving your foot but me with my size 13 shoe and long legs was able to do it. its a really tight fit though. really tight!!

[arig]

i try to imagine that i'd be screwed either way in a frontal impact so it wont matter where my left leg is.

[Vin]

For any cars with a steering coloumn between the brake and clutch, I use size 41 shoes, not sure if that is 8 or 9 in US standard. Eitherway, I have to curl my toes all the way. It's NOT comfortable, so I only put my racing shoes on when I am at my car, and take them off as SOON as I get out.

If it is cold or wet, about 5 mins in the shoes and my toes are numb.

For me, after learning to Left Foot Brake I can not Right Foot Brake in a single seater. Well, I can, but feels strange, like driving naked. In a touring car, Right Foot Braking is no problem.

Have a happy. .
Vinay

[dalyduo]

Thanks guys... Apparently both "beauty" and "left foot brakers" know no pain.

"Beauty Knows No Pain" is a somewhat famous 1972 documentary about the Kilgore College Rangerettes who were, when started in 1940, the first dancing drill team in the country and the ultimate female drill team in 1971. The documentary follows the recruits who come from all over the country and submit to a gruelling test camp to make the team. They are pushed to physical and emotional exhaustion with the girls meeting their triumph or disappointment with shrieks and tears. Led by a scary dominatrix named Ms. Gussie Nell Davis whose unforgiving steely eye holds them to impossible standards that make your jaw drop, you are struck by how totally the girls have bought into the program and will do almost anything to make the team. My reason for bringing this up is the costume fitting that happens for those who make the final cut. Their proper measurements are taken and the costumes are then intentionally ordered a size and a half too small to give the girls the preferred pinched waist look. Their final indignity comes in a photo session where the exhausted girls in costumes restricting their breathing are posed for a group photo sitting on and standing against a wall covered in thorny rose bushes that leave most of them punctured and bloodied. Ms. Davis directs them, as she always does, to smile a non-stop beauty queen grin that hides their considerable discomfort. "Beauty knows no pain girls! Beauty knows no pain!"

We all push ourselves to overcome obstacles at times and only when down the road looking back do we realize how crazy those choices may have been. (Not pointing fingers at Vinay or Ari... Their left foot adventures simply reminded me of the film and some of my own episodes of denial when marathon running. )

What this has to do with choosing a transmission I'm not sure but there is probably a lot less pain with the sequential.

[AZRCD]

You are all soft. Go with the bag the requires skill.

[rf360m]

All the left foot braking talk is interesting, but I don't see how it actually helps you in the RT2000. If there wasn't a clutch pedal and we could downshift by flipping a paddle then I would see the benefit. But don't we need to use the clutch when downshifting? And aren't you usually braking and downshifting at the same time? Or do you only use it for the occassional time when you have to make a slight speed adjustment without having to change gears?

[Vin]

The Official Skippy answer I think to this one is that you must use the clutch. I never went to a Skippy school, but I've heard they teach double clutching too.

My answer (Unofficial) is that any gear box can be shifted with out the clutch. With a normal road box with synchros, you need to be even MORE precise with matching revs (speeds of motor and gears to the wheels) and still, the shift will be slower than using a clutch (try it out sometime, just not in your own car!).

On a racing gear box (straight cut gears and dog teeth, sequential or H-Pattern), it is quicker to shift with out the clutch. For up shifts, you lift off the throttle, down shifts, you just blip. If you do not do it properly, you can damage the gear box, and if you don't blip enough on down shifts, your braking will not be optimum and you could lock up the rear wheels and spin.

I teach drivers in Formula Campus (normal dog box, H-Pattern), and Formula Renault (indestructible dog box with No Lift Up Shift). For Campus, I tell them they MUST use the clutch for ALL shifts (we get too many broken gear boxes from Karters that do not know how to drive!), for Renault, I teach them to LFB if they are interested in learning.

Of course, if the mechanics ever ask, I tell them I use the clutch every time!

Have a happy. .
Vinay

[rcote]

Vin is pretty spot on... Nice to see ya around BTW Vinay.... we raced together at Barber Park a few years ago... well.... at least you blew by Marco and I in the same corner anyway, back to the R/T's and LFB. I personaly only see the benefit MAYBE in situations where a light brake pedal to help balance the car is what you're looking for. Like say maybe the uphill.. to help ease the brake to throttle transition


LFB in a hard braking area to be FASTER, doesn't make much sense, since the R/T cannot outbrake how fast you can downshift using normal RFB and single clutch down-changes. Now in a car that has more grip and more brakes, where you could actually "outbrake" the downshift, then it makes more sense. Probally why the fastest testers that CAN LFB, don't actually normally do it.
oh.. and VIN, we teach a quick single dip of the clutch for downshifts, and just a slight lift, no clutch for upshifts in the R/Ts. In the schoolcars we teach double-clutch downshifts, more for the sake of teaching a skill every racer should have, than for the sake of the gearboxes. The MarkIXs are almost industructable in our lightweight car, UNLESS you're TRYIN to break it. I've always used a quick dip of the clutch up or down that barely even qualifies as using the clutch. Read Danny Sullivan's comments about shifting our school cars in Going Faster

[Vin]

Idealy speaking, I'd say LFB is faster, since you save time moving your foot from the accelerator to the brake. This is if you were a computer and drove perfect laps (I don't believe anyone can do this, except maybe Senna did once in Monoco)!

I use LFB on single seaters, since once I started doing it, it feels too slow and out of control if I move my right foot from the throttle to brake. It's a split second, but an important time when the car is transitioning. Plus, great way of controling the car in high speed corners, and wonderful for the rain. I can get similar laptimes with LFB and RFB, but I prefer LFB. Sort of like Heal Toeing in a road car, it just feels too weird to not Heal and Toe in all cars.

When I test the Formula Campus (H-Pattern) I normaly LFB, but then use the clutch for the upshifts. Using the clutch for upshifts is slower, but I can still beat the students and it's better for the gear box. Haven't broken a gear box yet, except one time they asked me to test a new gear set, and shift like a new student!

Have a happy. .
Vinay

[Jim Pace]

Most anyone that is "fast" and left foot brakes will be just as fast right foot braking (except oval & turbo as mentioned). Most drivers however would be even faster if they applied the same amount of effort to perfecting how they braked with whichever foot. the right foot is not very sensitive and the left even worse in most cases. However it you feel LFB works for you then do it! It was not Michael Jordan's Niki's that made the difference!

As to Double Clutch down shifting any method that includes blipping the engine in Neutral w/ the clutch out is double clutching! Just like "heel & toe" it refers to the technique and not the actual placement of your feet on the pedals. Two pedals w/ one foot is "heel & toe, blipping in Neutral w/ clutch out is double clutching. Use the clutch NONE, Once , or twice... the technique is still double clutching. It is a skill that makes one a better driver. If don't have to be a better driver but having improved skills makes you so. Use them when called upon...or not.
Jim

[John Greist]

Jim,

Ether distilled from the essence. Thanks again.