New Safety Discussion on SBRS Seats

[LimeRockRacer]

Dr. Jim N. fractured a vertebrae this past weekend at Mont Tremblant from a decent hit. After the incident I went over to see how he was feeling and he had a lot of pain in his back. At the time he did not know if he had any serious injuries. Once he got home he had it checked out and found the fracture. ( Hope you are feeling better Jim)

I asked Jim about his seat insert and whether he received any protection from it. In his case his seat back is very thin and basically cardboard covered by tape in the center with most of the foam at the sides to hold him tight in the seat. Hence he was more susceptible to a vertebrae injury from an impact than if he had some reasonable amount of padding in the center of the seat.

I have had a couple of heavy impacts over the years and found that my seat foam provided a decent amount of impact resistance. It seems to act sort of like an egg crate. I was out at Laguna last January and paid good money for the fancier seat. I have not used it since I found that when it was poured I did not leave enough room at the rear to have the extra foam in the middle. Having had the experience of hard impacts a couple of times I went for function over form. Or is that Foam over beauty?

I know this is not scientific nor do I have any empirical evidence other than personal body slams into cars and walls. I though this might be worth some discussion to see if anyone else agrees or has other inexpensive ways to make our racing experience safer.

[Slowhands]

Chris, I have thought about this as well, so I find it interesting that you bring it up. What was the nature of Jim's hit, ie did he back it in, or was it a side impact? Where was his pain exactly?

A foam seat is a similar material to the rigid foam liner found in a crash helmet (polyurethane vs ?polystyrene), and it is my belief that when it sets correctly (ie with all the tiny air cells) it can dissipate impact forces in the same way when it comes to force vectors from the rear. A seat that wraps around you would also provide dissipation of side impact forces. This would allow forces to be spread over the entire region of contact, rather than focused in one place, which is what causes fractures.

While the entire back is vulnerable, the driving position provides three areas of maximum stress:
- the neck, which is vulnerable to shear forces from all directions since the head is bobbing freely. The HANS addresses one aspect of these
- the upper spine between the shoulders, where the spine is curved backward due to our reclined seating posiiton
- the very lowest part of the spine (lumbosacral) -- many seats end above this area. If you are skinny, you may twist this area on impact due to lack of side support

I am sorry to hear about Jim's fracture. I didn't realize he was in such pain, he didn't confide it to me (he is going to hear about that). I believe that it is likely that a seat of at least the thickness of a helmet liner may have prevented the injury, but of course one would have to look at real experimental data in order to make a definitive statement. I would not be surprised if the IRL has such data, since all their drivers use poured seats. If the data don't exist, it should.

In any case, I believe your instincts are correct, and I share them. I believe the seat insert does provide shock absorption and everyone should use one that is at least the thickness of a helmet liner (1.5 in or more), and the thicker, the better.

[arig]

that's what she said harsha.

sorry, just watching the office before i go out.

[cooleyjb]

So where to start on seat inserts.

There are a couple of ways to do seat inserts. Pour them or use impact pads/baker pads/space foam pads/whatever you want to call them.

Using the pads is sortof a quick hodgepodge setup that as we all know is to fix painful issues and not usually a good longterm solution. Only the pricy impact foam that is about 100 bucks for a few square feet really does anything in an impact. The cheap foam compresses quickly and completely and doesn't help in an impact. I'll sortof consider them a non issue from here on and focus on the poured seats.

Poured seats.

Three major types.

1. 2 part foam
2. 'Bead' Seats (little poly foam beads)
3. Pourable BSCI Impact Foam seats.


2 Part Foam

Sortof the original poured seat. The 2 part foams are very common at hardware and boating stores. Very quick to do as it hardens quickly. Can be very messy if you use too much. Easy to pour into heavy duty garbage bags. Thanks to it being a liquid it does a very good job of filling in all the gaps. Huge plus is cost. Very cheap.

Downsides. Long term durability is the lowest out of the three choices. Thanks to it's liquid form it's a bit tougher to get a good pour 'under' a person. It is MUCH more brittle than the other two seats. In heavy impacts they are known to shatter. Because of those two reasons the safety aspect of them is sometimes a question.

Bead Seats

The next generation of poured seats. This is the same stuff you find in helmet liners as well as bumpers on newer cars. One of the biggest bead seat companies, Bald Spot Sports, pours seats for what seems to be the overwhelming majority of open wheel professionals and a chunk of NASCAR as wel as the supplier of the liners for Impact helmets. They are designed with impacts in mind to cushion and support the driver in a high G impact. Come in kits from a couple of places. They use a 2 part epoxy that is mixed into a bag of the beads. The bag is tehn placed under vacuum while the driver sits in the car for about an hour for the epoxy to 'soft cure'. The driver can get out and then another 8 or so hours under vacuum and the seat is solid and ready for final fitting. Easiest of the bunch to get a good thickness under driver. As a sidenote the seats used in IRL are actually 'machined' out of the materials after the driver is fitted with the traditional poured seat. It allows the seat to be reproduced quickly and easily as they 3D scan the original.

Downsides. Cost and time. a kit for a Barber car would be about 200 bucks and take the day to do it right. Also it is considered a one time use item. In a big hit you'd really want to pour a new seat.

BSCI foam

These are the guys who make the rollbar padding we all see on cars. They have a 2 part foam of their own that pours an SFI foam. The stuff is really nice. Takes just a little bit longer than the cheap 2 part foam. Good firm seat but has some of teh best numbers from impact testing and holds up really well to lots of wear and doesn't lose the impact characteristics after a big impact.

Downsides. The most expensive kit of the bunch. 600 bucks. Not as easy to get the seat poured well under the driver.


Now for the other part. Where to pour the seat.

Well in almost all the seats I've seen and/or poured there backs and side get good attention but the area around the legs and below the driver don't get much attention, especially in formula cars where space is at a premium.

The safest thing would be to get a decent thickness of the seat everywhere. Behind, beside and definitely below the driver. I think at least a few of the back injuries we've seen in formula cars might have been prevented by a good poured seat that had good protection under the driver instead of the driver sitting right on the belly pan.

In most of the seats I've seen from the top level series they do a very good job putting some padding all around the driver so the driver doesn't have solid metal/carbon tub being the first thing they hit.

As for the head/neck part of the equation that seems to be more of a car specific issue. In a formula car like F1 we now see that the drivers are sitting below the upper bar/edge of the chassis and there is a collar/foam piece that helps contain lateral and rearward movement of the head. Then the HNR is there to take care of us for the forward part of things.

[Slowhands]

Thanks, Joe, for a great overview. I would think Bald Spot has actual test data comparing it beads to standard 2-part foam. BSCI probably has data on their material. It would be interesting to see that.

Even though standard 2-part is likely the least effective in terms of shock absorption of the 3, I would still think it is significantly better than nothing. It still spreads energy, and even if it cracks or breaks, that is still some degree of energy dissipation.

Some more info: http://archive.dailysportscar.com/su...eafoamseat.htm

Originally Posted by arig

that's what she said harsha.
sorry, just watching the office before i go out.

What??? Earth to Ari. Come in Ari.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

...While the entire back is vulnerable, the driving position provides three areas of maximum stress:
- the neck, which is vulnerable to shear forces from all directions since the head is bobbing freely...

or in my case bobbleing freely

my liner back tape and cardboard..time to replace, owes me nothing after 7 years,
it is also offset to the right slightly which might explain a lot about my driving....NO, NOT MY...

I rest my case


serious subject, back to work...thanks for the good info

[dalyduo]

I can vouch for the fact that the 2 part foam doesn't give. Pancaked squarely into the concrete wall at Tremblant's turn 11 a few years back (that concrete now has a tire wall covering the wheel spoke imprints I left there)

While I was able to race the next day my right lower rib cartiledge was deformed somewhat with a noticable bump on my right side that isn't on the left. (And it's still there.) That bump was caused by my body impacting the seat foam. I'd have guessed the foam would have given itself up for me but the opposite was true. The foam didn't give a millimeter and I've now been "adjusted" to fit my foam seat insert even better. It's about 6 years old now and I'm still using it... It keeps me nicely positioned in the car but I have no illusions that it will cushion me from anything. It is very hard and brittle.

[arig]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

What??? Earth to Ari. Come in Ari.

The last line in your original post was something like "...and the thicker, the better"

I had The Office on in the background while reading your post. After reading your post, the 1st thing that popped into my head was Michael Scott and "that's what she said".

Great posts regarding seats though. I usually just use two pieces of foam that skippy provides. double it over and place it directly behind me. doesn't narrow the seat, just provides some cushion from the top of the seat which likes to hurt my shoulder blades as the top of the seat ends about 2/3 of the way up my back. I had a seat insert poured but it was way too thin and didn't do anything and then melted in my trunk in 90 degree weather.

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

(that concrete now has a tire wall covering the wheel spoke imprints I left there)

Has anyone else hit the wall that hard in a Skippy car since then? Gerardo, Ted and I took a track walk on Wed afternoon and admired what I was sure was your wall art--looked like it was in exactly the same place as you pointed it out before (he took a photo). Definite and VERY prominent Skippy wheel imprint (you could feel the indentation), right at the end of the tire wall. You would've thought that with such incontrovertible evidence, the tire wall building experts would've extended the tire wall a little further, but maybe they left that exposed as a warning to us all...More likely they didn't even notice it.

While I was able to race the next day my right lower rib cartiledge was deformed somewhat with a noticable bump on my right side that isn't on the left. (And it's still there.)

Another serious case of ribbus bumpus deformus. And I bet you didn't even get it X-rayed. Tsk, tsk.

The foam didn't give a millimeter and I've now been "adjusted" to fit my foam seat insert even better. It's about 6 years old now and I'm still using it... It keeps me nicely positioned in the car but I have no illusions that it will cushion me from anything. It is very hard and brittle.

My seat actually gives a little under my thumb if I press on it. I assumed they all did. Probably has to do with the variability in the mix of the 2 parts as the mix is done by hand. I bet one of the parts is a hardener and the seats come out softer if less of this is used.

Ari, the fact that you read through my entire speculative dissertation and all that registered with you was "the thicker the better" is VERY Office. The entire cast would be proud of you. However I am a little concerned.

[dalyduo]

Never got it X-rayed because there is no treatment for rib injury except pain medicaton. Probably cracked but not broken rib or ribs. It hurt for weeks.

Here are the pictures of the marks left by the car. The tire wall was nowhere near as far up the wall as it extends now. The following year I smiled when I saw they'd added tires to the location.

The car didn't look that bad but the structural damage was impressive. The frame rails were bent behind the drivers seat and all the right side suspension pieces were junk. I've forgotten the CDR number but proably in the $14,000 range.

Originally Posted by Slowhands

Has anyone else hit the wall that hard in a Skippy car since then? Gerardo, Ted and I took a track walk on Wed afternoon and admired what I was sure was your wall art--looked like it was in exactly the same place as you pointed it out before (he took a photo). Definite and VERY prominent Skippy wheel imprint (you could feel the indentation), right at the end of the tire wall. You would've thought that with such incontrovertible evidence, the tire wall building experts would've extended the tire wall a little further, but maybe they left that exposed as a warning to us all...More likely they didn't even notice it.

Another serious case of ribbus bumpus deformus. And I bet you didn't even get it X-rayed. Tsk, tsk. My seat actually gives a little under my thumb if I press on it. I assumed they all did. Probably has to do with the variability in the mix of the 2 parts as the mix is done by hand. I bet one of the parts is a hardener and the seats come out softer if less of this is used.

[Slowhands]

Looks like someone else did a Daly, more recently. The imprints are close, but not exact. Not surprising I thought they were the same. We only go up there once a year. In the ADV2? Last year?

First one's yours, second photo courtesy of Gerardo this year:

ps: we observed those little drain vents to be prized by the groundhogs as superior intermediate safe places as they "serpentine" their way back to their burrows.

[cooleyjb]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

Thanks, Joe, for a great overview. I would think Bald Spot has actual test data comparing it beads to standard 2-part foam. BSCI probably has data on their material. It would be interesting to see that.

Even though standard 2-part is likely the least effective in terms of shock absorption of the 3, I would still think it is significantly better than nothing. It still spreads energy, and even if it cracks or breaks, that is still some degree of energy dissipation.

Some more info: http://archive.dailysportscar.com/su...eafoamseat.htm

I don't have any good online material that I can link to that has meaningful test data. They are just bar graphs showing that the creafoam seat kits are much better than the SFI standard and a competitors kit. The BSCI data that I've seen on their site is now password protected.

If anyone has any questions please feel free to send me an email or post a note here. If I get a chance to shoot some pictures of the seats I have in the shop I'll post them up for you guys.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

Looks like someone else did a Daly, more recently. The imprints are close, but not exact. Not surprising I thought they were the same. We only go up there once a year. In the ADV2? Last year?
First one's yours, second photo courtesy of Gerardo this year

I thought Cheng or Carter hit hard there this year, no?

Originally Posted by Slowhands

ps: we observed those little drain vents to be prized by the groundhogs as superior intermediate safe places as they "serpentine" their way back to their burrows.

those are slots for fork lift blades

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by cdh

those are slots for fork lift blades

You live your reality, I'll live mine.

[LimeRockRacer]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

You live your reality, I'll live mine.

The foam in my seat while seeming hard does offer some protection vs. hitting the old spine into the hard pan of the seat. I know from experience.

I agree with Pat however that some hits, dependent on force and direction, the body just does not like, foam or no foam. Perhaps we could invent a body bubble that inflates upon impact to prevent serious damage!

[Gerardo]

It is my belief the seat is one of the most important pieces of a race car's safety systems (in combination with good belts, helmet, HANS, head pads, arm restraints, etc). Joe's descriptions are very helpful. My preference is the creaform bead seat by Bald Spot Sports (there is another vendor that makes a similar seat).

In addition to the creaform recommended-for-one-major-hit seat, Bald Spot is manufacturing a newer material that is rated for multiple heavy impacts. As Joe said, they scan either seat and use a CNC type machine to cut new seats. Apparently drivers are a picky lot (ask me how I know), and once they make a perfect seat, they wish they could make more like it. The scan and cut process solved this, and actually keeps costs under control since labor costs are reduced.

The speeds of the Skip Barber car are low enough that a 2-part foam seat is adequate for most (but not all) incidents as long as it is properly shaped around your body to spread the energy of an impace across a larger surface area. It does have limiations, and it will feel pretty solid in a hit.

Bead Seat Notes
The beads of a bead seat are part of the science of its better impact absorption. Each bead is easy to squeeze, but when they are all glued together perfectly around your body, they spread the energy and squish in unison in just the right way to protect you better. Bald Spot Sports has tested many variations over the years to come up with the current products.

Bald Spot also works together with the IRL on research to make better seats. Apparently, IndyCar hits on ovals are very violent events. They have spent the last twelve years or so working on a seat that can reduce risk to the vertebrae. Imagine spinning a car at Indy at over 200 mph, and as the car is sliding backwards towards the wall, the g-forces move your body forward and stretch the belts, creating an airspace between your back and the seat. Then, the car backs into the wall, your body flies into the seat, and ouch, it can injure. Sometimes the driver slides up, the belts hold you down, and there is compression. They are still working on these challenges. At 80+ g's, that's not easy.

One idea they tried was a miniature version of the SAFER barrier behind the seat insert. The SAFER wall has foam pillars at specific gaps behind a metal guardrail. BSS/IRL worked on smaller foam trusses behind the main seat, which worked great. Problem is, its not practical, doesn't fit. Another idea that helped reduce injury was to sit the driver more upright. Again, packaging (keeping the driver low for center of gravity, low to keep the head out of the wind or engine air intake), prevents an upright seating position from working in a IndyCar. This information is about two years old, so I'm sure they've come up with new ideas.

The good news is the development transfers down to the feeder series like Skip Barber.

Should I make a new seat?
Should you make a bead seat? If you're driving a Star Mazda car or better, absolutely yes. In a 2-liter car like Skip Barber, its good, but not as critical. If you want the ultimate in safety, then go for it. But a well made 2-part seat is far better than a poorly fitted one, and FAR better than no insert at all. Not to mention, you will drive better with a well fitted seat. Tip your seat-maker / mechanic well and be very specific on your needs. Don't know what you need? Ask a veteran driver or tester. If making a bead seat, hire someone who has experience with them. The best guys get $1000 per seat, but many will do it for less.

I had several huge hits in Star Mazda and the LMP2. The bead seat and some luck let me walk away each time.

[dalyduo]

This has been a terrific discussion with great observations and solid information. I was looking at Chris's original post and realized Dr. Jim's impact may have had little or nothing to do with this discussion. According to Dr. Jim his impact was absolutely straight into the tire wall so his body's deceleration was all into his belts, not the seat. Don't know which vertebrae was broken or how it was broken but do know Dr. Jim wasn't wearing a HANS. Would need to know which vertebrae and theories on what caused the break to further this discussion but would be curious to know.

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

This has been a terrific discussion with great observations and solid information. I was looking at Chris's original post and realized Dr. Jim's impact may have had little or nothing to do with this discussion. According to Dr. Jim his impact was absolutely straight into the tire wall so his body's deceleration was all into his belts, not the seat. Don't know which vertebrae was broken or how it was broken but do know Dr. Jim wasn't wearing a HANS. Would need to know which vertebrae and theories on what caused the break to further this discussion but would be curious to know.

Agree completely. Are you in contact with him and could you find this out? I don't have contact info or I would do it myself. This would be the fourth instance of fractured vertebrae I know of, 2 in Skippy cars (Stirling and Jim) and 2 in FCs (higher speed incidents involving the car becoming airborne-- John Greist and Rick Balsley). All others were wearing HANS and were rear or complex impacts.

[dalyduo]

I don't have the good Dr's contact info but I'm sure Al does. Maybe he could pass it along in a PM or let Jim know we were curious about which vertebrae was broken and what he thinks caused the break other than the simple rapid deceleration of the car.

Originally Posted by Slowhands

Agree completely. Are you in contact with him and could you find this out? I don't have contact info or I would do it myself. This would be the fourth instance of fractured vertebrae I know of, 2 in Skippy cars (Stirling and Jim) and 2 in FCs (higher speed incidents involving the car becoming airborne-- John Greist and Rick Balsley). All others were wearing HANS and were rear or complex impacts.

[Rosso]

Not that we shouldn't strive to make this as safe as is practical, this is still risky business. Last weekend a good friend of mine, a 50-something architect, reportedly broke six ribs water sking. A crash into a "soft" barrier at probably less than 60 mph.

[dalyduo]

Good point and we of the Masters and Grand Masters vintage are less flexible and more prone to breakage upon any kind of impact.

Originally Posted by Rosso

Not that we shouldn't strive to make this as safe as is practical, this is still risky business. Last weekend a good friend of mine, a 50-something architect, reportedly broke six ribs water sking. A crash into a "soft" barrier at probably less than 60 mph.

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by Rosso

Not that we shouldn't strive to make this as safe as is practical, this is still risky business. Last weekend a good friend of mine, a 50-something architect, reportedly broke six ribs water sking. A crash into a "soft" barrier at probably less than 60 mph.

Likely considerably less than 60 mph. Boat speed for competition slalom is usually in the range of 35 mph and for "flying" jumps 45 mph. But your point is well-taken. And as Pat notes, the more brittle the tissue, the easier it will break rather than stretch or bend.

How can we as Masters prolong the flexibility of our bodies? Daily low-impact exercise and prolonged stretching sessions at least 2-3 times a week. Replace intake of saturated fats with omega-3 fats to make sure our cell membranes are of the best possible composition. Give up completely intake of chemicals which destroy the elastic tissues such as cigarette smoke (sorry, guys but it's true), soft drink acids, pro-inflammatory compounds such as refined sugars and carbohydrates. Replace with whole grain starches and antioxidant-rich fruits and vegetables. Limit intake of animal protein to that needed for strength and tissue repair (more active people will need more, but this is usually only a couple of servings per week). Reduced caloric intake is proven to slow aging and increase lifespan. Eliminate stress, which interferes with enzyme systems, immune response, and repair processes, and increases tissue breakdown. Plenty of sleep to repair cell damage. And most importantly, stay out of the barriers. Meaning driving at 9.5 tenths so that there is always a margin for error, a rule I broke on Wednesday trying to catch Spencer in the rain. Because all it can take is that one hit that puts us out for a year whereas a 20-year old will be sore and drive the next day.

[dalyduo]

What! No steaks, Jager or crashing?! Wha... I've lost the will to live.

Originally Posted by Slowhands

How can we as Masters prolong the flexibility of our bodies? Daily low-impact exercise and prolonged stretching sessions at least 2-3 times a week. Replace intake of saturated fats with omega-3 fats to make sure our cell membranes are of the best possible composition. Give up completely intake of chemicals which destroy the elastic tissues such as cigarette smoke (sorry, guys but it's true), soft drink acids, pro-inflammatory compounds such as refined sugars and carbohydrates. Replace with whole grain starches and antioxidant-rich fruits and vegetables. Limit intake of animal protein to that needed for strength and tissue repair (more active people will need more, but this is usually only a couple of servings per week). Reduced caloric intake is proven to slow aging and increase lifespan. Eliminate stress, which interferes with enzyme systems, immune response, and repair processes, and increases tissue breakdown. Plenty of sleep to repair cell damage. And most importantly, stay out of the barriers. Meaning driving at 9.5 tenths so that there is always a margin for error, a rule I broke on Wednesday trying to catch Spencer in the rain. Because all it can take is that one hit that puts us out for a year whereas a 20-year old will be sore and drive the next day.

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

Likely considerably less than 60 mph...

My estimated speed also factored in the "whip" effect and the fact that his 20-something son was driving the boat. And we have seen, on this very website, how quickly the offspring can turn on you!

Originally Posted by dalyduo

What! No steaks, Jager or crashing?! Wha... I've lost the will to live.

AMEN! My wife does all that (the healthy, Harsha approved stuff) & she can't drive a lick. (Not that I'm much better)

[dalyduo]

Originally Posted by Rosso

My estimated speed also factored in the "whip" effect and the fact that his 20-something son was driving the boat. And we have seen, on this very website, how quickly the offspring can turn on you!

AMEN! My wife does all that (the healthy, Harsha approved stuff) & she can't drive a lick. (Not that I'm much better)

[cdh]

Originally Posted by Slowhands

Likely considerably less than 60 mph. Boat speed for competition slalom is usually in the range of 35 mph and for "flying" jumps 45 mph. But your point is well-taken. And as Pat notes, the more brittle the tissue, the easier it will break rather than stretch or bend.

How can we as Masters prolong the flexibility of our bodies? Daily low-impact exercise and prolonged stretching sessions at least 2-3 times a week. Replace intake of saturated fats with omega-3 fats to make sure our cell membranes are of the best possible composition. Give up completely intake of chemicals which destroy the elastic tissues such as cigarette smoke (sorry, guys but it's true), soft drink acids, pro-inflammatory compounds such as refined sugars and carbohydrates. Replace with whole grain starches and antioxidant-rich fruits and vegetables. Limit intake of animal protein to that needed for strength and tissue repair (more active people will need more, but this is usually only a couple of servings per week). Reduced caloric intake is proven to slow aging and increase lifespan. Eliminate stress, which interferes with enzyme systems, immune response, and repair processes, and increases tissue breakdown. Plenty of sleep to repair cell damage. And most importantly, stay out of the barriers. Meaning driving at 9.5 tenths so that there is always a margin for error, a rule I broke on Wednesday trying to catch Spencer in the rain. Because all it can take is that one hit that puts us out for a year whereas a 20-year old will be sore and drive the next day.

Can easily reach 60 MPH on a slalom ski behind a 35 mph tow boat...

H, you forgot video editing and driving a mini on your don't list.

[Rosso]

Obviously, it can happen to ANYONE! I have always felt comfortably safe in a Skippy car. On the other hand, I have always felt like a moving target on the Ducati on the street.

Schumacher scraps F1 comeback plans

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/footba...ury/index.html

(CNN) -- Michael Schumacher has called off his eagerly-anticipated Formula One comeback with Ferrari because he has not recovered from a neck injury he sustained in a motorcycling accident earlier this year.

The seven-time world champion added "the consequences of the injuries caused by the bike-accident in February, fractures in the area of head and neck, unfortunately have turned out to be still too severe."

[dalyduo]

Bummer... We were all poised to see what Shumacher had left... Ah well. Good news for Luca Badoer who's been the Ferrari good soldier for years.

From Autosport.com - 10 facts about Luca Badoer

Originally Posted by Rosso

Schumacher scraps F1 comeback plans

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/footba...ury/index.html

(CNN) -- Michael Schumacher has called off his eagerly-anticipated Formula One comeback with Ferrari because he has not recovered from a neck injury he sustained in a motorcycling accident earlier this year.

The seven-time world champion added "the consequences of the injuries caused by the bike-accident in February, fractures in the area of head and neck, unfortunately have turned out to be still too severe."

[GEORGE]

Probably eats that whole grain stuff, no smokes, no Jeager, No ice cream, No Fun.......But flexable!

[dalyduo]

Yeah... but can you imagine what kind of stuff he has in his garage? Love to know what daily beater he drives to work.

Rather than continue this hijack from a very worthy discussion let's take this over to a Hot News thread on the subject.

Hot News Thread on Shuey's decision not to race in F1 again

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

What! No steaks, Jager or crashing?! Wha... I've lost the will to live.

Originally Posted by Rosso

AMEN! My wife does all that (the healthy, Harsha approved stuff) & she can't drive a lick. (Not that I'm much better)

Originally Posted by GEORGE

Probably eats that whole grain stuff, no smokes, no Jeager, No ice cream, No Fun.......But flexable!

Hey guys--

Don't shoot the messenger!!!!!

Oh, and you can all breathe a huge sigh of relief-- Jager is allowed! Some alcohol intake is actually good for geezers!

It is well known that moderate drinking can have positive health benefits — for instance, a couple of glasses of red wine a day can be good for the heart. But if you're a senior in good health, light to moderate consumption of alcohol may also help prevent the development of physical disability.

That's the conclusion of a new UCLA study, available in the online edition of the American Journal of Epidemiology, which found that light to moderate drinking among these seniors reduced their odds of developing physical problems that would prevent them from performing common tasks such as walking, dressing and grooming.

(Although some of us have always had trouble walking, dressing, and grooming, so this may be of small comfort.)

Originally Posted by cdh

H, you forgot video editing and driving a mini on your don't list.

Rest easy my friend. Video editing keeps all those critical visual processing regions in the brain sharp and agile, so driving a Mini, if you survive it, is fine as long as you have a camera running.

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by Rosso

Obviously, it can happen to ANYONE! I have always felt comfortably safe in a Skippy car. On the other hand, I have always felt like a moving target on the Ducati on the street.

Mike--

You ARE an easily overlooked, highly vulnerable target. I'm sure you know the stats. I have fought the urge to buy a bike for the last 10 years. Fortunately I discovered SB just as I was about to close the deal.

A disappointed Eddie Jordan, who gave Michael his first F1 drive in a Jordan car, questioned why Michael ever risked such an injury saying, "What was he thinking with the bikes, he had rocks in his head."

Be careful.

[GriffDogRacer]

I'll check with the doc. I've been meaning to see how he was doing since I first saw this thread.

As for seat foam, that and a HANS were on my list of "must have" before my first race. The back of my seat insert is pretty thick, much more so than some I've seen. After the discussion on projectile impacts to the head, I began to question if that was all together too smart. A slightly less reclined seating position... plus my big ol' mellon makes for a pretty good target. I digress... In the one significant impact I've had (right quarter, acute angle impact with a concrete barrier), I had a headache for a few but no back or rib pain. Guess it worked.

Originally Posted by dalyduo

I don't have the good Dr's contact info but I'm sure Al does. Maybe he could pass it along in a PM or let Jim know we were curious about which vertebrae was broken and what he thinks caused the break other than the simple rapid deceleration of the car.

[GEORGE]

I would like to bring up the question of size. As a rather Large guy in a small car, I have noticed while driving that I seem to stick out of the car a little more than the shorter guys.
What is the risk difference with the seat only coming up to my shoulder blades? I did get a seat insert this year, and it made me even feel more exposed, albiet more snug in the seat and better able to concentrate on driving instead of wedging myself in and bracing for every turn.

I will say that I am very jealous of those comfy seats in the MX-5's though.

[dalyduo]

Two guys, Nick Spencer and Donald MacDonald come to mind as very tall drivers who came close to challenging the height of the roll bars in the open wheel cars. Donald used one of the early big boy seats that were cut out to let him sit almost on the floorpan of the car. Before that he was uncomfortable with how high he sat in the car and stopped racing for a while until the big boy seat came along. You might ask a mechanic, pit lane coordinator or customer service rep about 'em. They used to have one or two in the parts trailer for customer use. It's a bit of a logistical issue because you can't put a regular size driver or regular seat insert into a car with a big boy seat so that car has to be dedicated to one person (or two if you have two big drivers.) All of this only relates to height issues.

Originally Posted by GEORGE

I would like to bring up the question of size. As a rather Large guy in a small car, I have noticed while driving that I seem to stick out of the car a little more than the shorter guys.
What is the risk difference with the seat only coming up to my shoulder blades? I did get a seat insert this year, and it made me even feel more exposed, albiet more snug in the seat and better able to concentrate on driving instead of wedging myself in and bracing for every turn.

I will say that I am very jealous of those comfy seats in the MX-5's though.

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

Two guys, Nick Spencer and Donald MacDonald come to mind as very tall drivers who came close to challenging the height of the roll bars in the open wheel cars. Donald used one of the early big boy seats that were cut out to let him sit almost on the floorpan of the car. Before that he was uncomfortable with how high he sat in the car and stopped racing for a while until the big boy seat came along. You might ask a mechanic, pit lane coordinator or customer service rep about 'em. They used to have one or two in the parts trailer for customer use. It's a bit of a logistical issue because you can't put a regular size driver or regular seat insert into a car with a big boy seat so that car has to be dedicated to one person (or two if you have two big drivers.) All of this only relates to height issues.

Well, I'm 6'-2", a reasonably fit 190 lbs, and for me the limiting factor seems to be that my hips are wider than the width of the chassis tubes that the plastic seat mounts over. If you cut out the bottom of the seat I don't see how my hips could drop any lower. I get bruises on both hip as is. Day 2, Session 1 strap-in is always an "OUCH" moment.

[dalyduo]

Your argument as to width makes sense but if they're still available for use you might try one out just to see what it's like. I haven't seen or heard of them in a couple of years so they may not be available any longer. No harm in asking though.

Originally Posted by Rosso

Well, I'm 6'-2", a reasonably fit 190 lbs, and for me the limiting factor seems to be that my hips are wider than the width of the chassis tubes that the plastic seat mounts over. If you cut out the bottom of the seat I don't see how my hips could drop any lower. I get bruises on both hip as is. Day 2, Session 1 strap-in is always an "OUCH" moment.

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

Your argument as to width makes sense but if they're still available for use you might try one out just to see what it's like. I haven't seen or heard of them in a couple of years so they may not be available any longer. No harm in asking though.

I think I'll stand pat. Different seat position would render my seat insert usless.

[Gerardo]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

... used one of the early big boy seats that were cut out to let him sit almost on the floorpan of the car. Before that he was uncomfortable with how high he sat in the car and stopped racing for a while until the big boy seat came along. You might ask a mechanic, pit lane coordinator or customer service rep about 'em. They used to have one or two in the parts trailer for customer use. It's a bit of a logistical issue because you can't put a regular size driver or regular seat insert into a car with a big boy seat so that car has to be dedicated to one person (or two if you have two big drivers.) All of this only relates to height issues.

I recommend against a "big boy" seat. They do not quite provide frontal impact security to your body. The seat, as designed now, holds your butt in a V shaped bowl, with the lap belt at the apex of this bowl. With the lap belts properly tightened, in a frontal crash, your body moves forward very little. The anti-sub strap is a last resort safety net.

With the lower part of the seat cut out as on those early half-seats, the only thing holding you is the lap belts (if properly tightened) and the sub belt. Still want to have kids?

Look at any pro bead seat and you will see the bowl shape that does more than hold your body lateraly in place. It has an area foward of your butt that longitudinally centers your body with the belts.

Right now, the best way to accomodate a larger driver than the current seat mold is to design and implement a new mold. The current mold appears to use all the available space, so that doesn't appear practical without a new car. Otherwise, your butt fits into the V, and you can only design your insert as best you can to keep yourself reclined, and thus your head and shoulders lower. The tallest guys will sit taller no matter what you do, but you can minimize it with a well designed seat.

Yes, if your hips are wide, it can hurt next day. A little sliver of seat foam can help relieve the pressure point pain, even if it seems at first to make the width even smaller.

[dalyduo]

Gerardo has a much broader perspective on this than I do and his arguments make sense so it's probably not a bad thing or even an accident that we're not seeing those seats being used. I'll gladly retract my suggestion based on the lack of support they supply in holding you in place during a serious impact.

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by Gerardo

...Yes, if your hips are wide, it can hurt next day...

Just the price of admission, in my view. The car is what it is. Adapt and overcome. Decidedly less next-day painful that the hobbies of my youth, marathon and triathlon.

[Yarab]

Coming late to the party as usual,
At least you guys can have foam inserts, when I run skippy the best I can do is my lumbar roll and a piece of foam for my shoulder blades, and yes, I have been on Harsha diet and exercise plan for years. Probably the only 240lb guy who can run a sub 52 min 10 k.
It all goes back to, If you aren't comfortable with the risks, don't get in the car. I know I will never have a properly fitting seat or car for that matter, and I tell everyone if I have a big one your going to have to cut the car in half to get me out. Part of the game for me !!
Ron

[GEORGE]

YIIIIIKKKKKKKEEEEES!
I know the risks and I accept them. I also know the seat must accomodate the average person.... I'm below average..... but we are talking safety over comfort here. I can only believe that we are ALL un comfortable in that seat. I had a seat poured this year and it was a MAJOR improvment! To say the least!
But I look at the insert as a comfort improvment rather than a safety enhancment.

I was having a conversation with Sid about the R/T and the Miata. He said that the R/T beat the crap out of him in only a couple of laps.... he could drive the Miata all afternoon and still feel great ( Well, now Sid is not your picture of perfection in the human body and who know what his version of feeling great is) ( Sorry Sid) But, the R/T is such a fun car to drive, and such a great learning tool, that it is a shame it could not be a little more comfortable to drive.


I have one other item in the R/T .... The Steering wheel. Why is it soo small? I feel as though it could be a little larger for my hands. Couple this with the height issue and the Tach becomes another matter. I cannot see the Tach. I have to look at the Tail of the needle sometimes. The steering wheel cover the entire top half of the meter so I find myself changing up more by sound than by actual gauge reading.

Are these just my issues or ( and believe me, I will suffer through them just to be in the racing car) or can they be easily, and Cheaply accomodated.

[dalyduo]

There is one other vehicle at Tremblant that is dimensionally correct for Sid's space frame and gravity is his best friend.

Originally Posted by GEORGE

I was having a conversation with Sid about the R/T and the Miata. He said that the R/T beat the crap out of him in only a couple of laps.... he could drive the Miata all afternoon and still feel great ( Well, now Sid is not your picture of perfection in the human body and who know what his version of feeling great is) ( Sorry Sid)

[Rosso]

Originally Posted by GEORGE

I have one other item in the R/T .... The Steering wheel. Why is it soo small? I feel as though it could be a little larger for my hands. Couple this with the height issue and the Tach becomes another matter. I cannot see the Tach. I have to look at the Tail of the needle sometimes. The steering wheel cover the entire top half of the meter so I find myself changing up more by sound than by actual gauge reading.

Are these just my issues or ( and believe me, I will suffer through them just to be in the racing car) or can they be easily, and Cheaply accomodated.

STOP!!! The sight line through the steering wheel is the ONLY thing that is optimum for us tall guys. (Except I can't see the temp gauge AT ALL.) Please let us keep that one comfort.

Wait until you reach the age of reason. Then you won't be able to read it even if you could see it.

Besides, isn't 6000 rpm somewhere in the vicinity of 7:30 or 8 o'clock?

Originally Posted by dalyduo

There is one other vehicle at Tremblant that is dimentionally correct for Sid's space frame and gravity is his best friend.

Simply organic rib protection...

[Slowhands]

George,

If you ask for it ahead of time, they can create an "A+" car which is the tallest car available. I am assuming you already drive an "A", is that right? When you get back into it, on a lapping day have them A+ a car and see if its any better for you.

[dalyduo]

What's the difference between an A and an A+ Harsha? The only thing I can come up with is a pedal box adjustment.

Originally Posted by Slowhands

George,

If you ask for it ahead of time, they can create an "A+" car which is the tallest car available. I am assuming you already drive an "A", is that right? When you get back into it, on a lapping day have them A+ a car and see if its any better for you.

[Slowhands]

Originally Posted by dalyduo

What's the difference between an A and an A+ Harsha? The only thing I can come up with is a pedal box adjustment.

Yes, pedal box.

[cdh]

need more of these



chop shop

[Tireman]

Originally Posted by cdh

need more of these

The only thing missing, for those long enduros, is a Mr Chicken tray.