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  #1  
Old 07-06-2006
Andrew Andrew is offline
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How to observe a waving yellow

Well it happened again.
Worked hard to gain a position and put some distance between us and came up on a waving yellow at turn five RA.
You can clearly see the safety team truck right at the edge of the track at the corner exit! I slow to a prudent speed, (not a crawl, but reasonable to insure control of the car for their sake,) only to find the driver behind me drive at racing speed, close the gap and make a run at me going up the hill.
Of course, carrying quite a few exit speed MPHs, he regains the position and motors away. With only two laps remaining, I can hardly catch up and get the spot back, only to lose it again going up the hill after 14 to the checker. He was close enough to get my draft and nipped me at the start/finish line. You may say that's racing and I say BS! I'm not complaining about the driver, I know and like the guy; it's just that we as drivers need to come to some standards and code to adhere to involving what a prudent speed reduction should be.
Maybe it would be asking everyone to go one gear lowerthan they had been using. Or maybe disallowing passing until after exiting the following corning. Or how about having the observers assess atime penalty(5 seconds?) if in their opinion, the speed was imprudent.
I know this is all subjective except for not passing until after the next corner.
We probably all fell victim to this and I think it needs to be discussed, primarily because of PEOPLE being out from behind the safety barriers putting themselves in harms way to service us. We owe them a lot more respect.
Open for discussion.
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Old 07-06-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

usually what they do in formula one is you can not pass from the yellow flag situation till the apex of the next corner (where a green flag is then being displayed. as for gaining and losing distance, it is your own choice as to whether it is important to risk lives and go all out through a yellow flag scenario, or to take it easy through there. Me personally, i slow to only like 8/10 pace for a yellow, for the exact same reason that you are talking about where people gain ground on you...its all about using judgement and common sense, and sometimes others dont use common sense.
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Old 07-06-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Last weekend, I happened to be sitting in the Turn 5 grandstand at RA with an instructor. There was a waving yellow, and the two cars approaching down the hill were the leader and second place, with a gap of perhaps two or three cars lengths. Both cars slowed equally, maintained roughly the same gap, and then took off up the hill toward Turn 6. The instructor watched all of this rather quietly. I asked about what had occurred, and he was searching for the right word, when I said that both drivers were "respectful" of the yellow flag. He agreed and clearly was also thinking something else, and I continued "But they're still in a race", meaning that they are both aiming to be in the lead, and he agreed with that too.

The instructor was pleased that the two drivers had behaved on the side of caution, but he also indicated that what we saw was not what would occur most often. Instead, any driver slowing for a yellow can probably aniticpate that whoever is behind will likely seek to close the gap and, in a corner, also attempt to gain an edge on the way out of the turn.

So ... in this case, the prevalent scenario would have been exactly what happened to you, Andrew, i.e., you slow and the driver behind you gets a run up the hill toward Turn 6.

On the practice day, I finally had the presence of mind to raise my hand in the air when approaching a waving yellow (I always slow, but until now had not raised my hand). How many do that?

Lastly, I agree with Andrew that the corner workers and tow truck personnel deserve some consideration. If the heat of competition produced a second wreck in a location where the first wreck was being handled and anyone was injured, that would be really tragic.
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Old 07-07-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

It doesn't sound like the second driver wasn't in safe control. You didn't mention 'excessive speed', 'sliding', 'tire noise', etc. Therefore, I'd find it hard to fault him (or her).

If, on the other hand, you suggested that their speed was unsafe (rather than simply being higher than yours), I'd say they should be publically stoned. Putting others at risk for the sake of an amateur race is, well, amateur.
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Old 07-07-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJAmok
It doesn't sound like the second driver wasn't in safe control. You didn't mention 'excessive speed', 'sliding', 'tire noise', etc. Therefore, I'd find it hard to fault him (or her).

If, on the other hand, you suggested that their speed was unsafe (rather than simply being higher than yours), I'd say they should be publically stoned. Putting others at risk for the sake of an amateur race is, well, amateur.
what he said....

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Old 07-07-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Originally Posted by MJAmok
"...If, on the other hand, you suggested that their speed was unsafe (rather than simply being higher than yours), I'd say they should be publically stoned. Putting others at risk for the sake of an amateur race is, well, amateur."

Agreed!!!!
Waving Yellow is to indicate a danger on or close to the racing surface. Driver must be prepared to take evasive action including coming to a full stop.
There is usually not a red flag on the corner station and even if there is..the Red Flag is only displayed by a call from Race Control. Therefore the flag that you get when all hell breaks loose is Waving Yellow. Think of the Formula Mazda at Montreal, all the warning that you are going to get is a waving yellow and the track is 80% blocked.

Standing yellow is to indicate a danger near the track. Driver must slow to a speed that ensures he/she does not loose control of their car and hit something off the track.

The speeds, as pointed out already, are subjective and it is the instructors call. The Yellow can allow someone to gain ground on you, much the same as a Pace Car situation, but at least with a local yellow it is usually only a few cars.

I have advocated the use of "no passing until the green flag is displayed at the next corner"...but I do see problems with that approach (a) Do you go back to racing when you see the green? Or as you pass the green flag? (b) With limited Flagging people, the distance from Flag stations could be very long (think of Sebring Turn 16 to Turn 17).

As the song goes "...sometimes you are the bug and sometimes you are the windshield" I hope everyone is always the windshield.

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Old 07-07-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

This whole topic played a critical role in several races this past weekend at RA. Skippy was running against a very tight schedule at RA. The last run group was bumped to Sunday for the second weekend in a row. As such, Nick Nick elected to run with standing yellow in multiple corners rather than lose time to removing cars from the beach.

I think the quality of the racing was affected by the time crunch. These cars should have been moved for safety and to allow for the best racing on a clear track. He just couldn't afford the time and still keep the show on schedule. The final 4 laps of my race 1 were run with standing yellow in T6 and T14. Kinda tough to assure a good run up the front straight when you have to nurse it though 14 because there is a car in the beach just off the racing line at track out.

However, the prospect of navigating multiple Sportsman group restarts isn't all that appealing either!
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Old 07-07-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Kasey,
At least the flags at T6 ad T14 were not waving yellows. With a Standing Yellow you should be able to go through at speed but not at maximum speed. I hate to get to the NASCAR Standard of any yellow causes full course yellow or stops race totally. On a road course, we should go BTW until the yellow and then BTW after you pass the incident.

Ken
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Old 07-07-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Keep in mind too that a standing yellow is what F1 uses whenever they can get away with it.
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Old 07-08-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Adding a comment here - this is more about what's consistent with a group of drivers than trying to strictly interpret the rules -

To wit...

In my 3-day school, it was hammered into us that "waving yellow" meant "look out" - and you had to be off the power somewhat, eyes up, don't push, don't pass....

I learned in the Western Series that waving yellow means "caution" - be aware - but I must have lost 10 spots across the season when I"d back off big time and the guy behind me would rocket by (now, he might have passed at some point anyway, but that's a different story..."

The short version that I"ve learned in Skippy World is that 90% of us will do the right thing - to MikeA's point, be in control....these days, I'll back down a bit, but I will ALSO defend my spot, as long as I can see the hazard and I know that I'm not adding to the problem/risk.

However, we DO have our "10%" - fast or slow, the guys who use yellows as a catchup opportunity (there's a few!) and those that just don't pay attention. I can show you $5K in my crash damage annals I'll attribute to someone who wasn't watching the flaggers...

If you want a GREAT primer on how to behave for yellows - ask Randy Buck, the West Chief Instructor Dude. He mixes rules, wisdom and reality all into good coaching.

Also, I have learned - after doing a couple races with the Champ group, as well as interacting with some National guys on track, that it is also dependent on the average skill of the field - I'm a Sportsman guy right now. The National Masters dudes have a different level of what "checking up" means - which is fine....

BTW - for me, I'd rather lose a spot than cause $5K in crash damage - or worse. I tend not to think about the money, I worry about the "worse".....I have kids, too.
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Old 07-09-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Looks like a common problem that many of us experienced.
There doesn't appear to be a method of monitoring and enforcing, or even defining what a prudent speed would be through a waving yellow zone.
The idea of disallowing passing until after the next corner, upon reflection, won't work. As someone suggested, it could back up the entire field if, for example, a front runner happened upon a back marker and had to hold their position through, say turn 8 at RA all the way through 12 (the next braking zone.)
From all the comments made, it is obvious that we need to rely on the driver's descretion, or indiscretion, as the case may be. As painful as it is to lose a position, it'll just have to be something to be accepted, except for the danger to the safety/corner workers.
I will always remember Willy T. Ribbs, in a Champ car, flattening a corner worker at ,I believe it was at Toronto, some years ago. He came through a blind corner with yellows all over the place and appeared to make an attempt to go around the corner worker who was on track trying to push another car out of the way. As the workers were warned of approaching cars (whistles blowing), one guy wasn't sure of which direction to go and Willy T., going too fast, couldn't avoid him and literally rolled over him with a big fat rear tire and smashed his head on the pavement, killing him instantly. It was horrific. Maybe everyone should be made to see the same thing at least once during a class room exercise. Even with a clear view of the incident, drivers must be aware that there could be oil, water, gravel or whatever on the track.
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Old 07-09-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Quote:
Originally Posted by J Goring
usually what they do in formula one is you can not pass from the yellow flag situation till the apex of the next corner (where a green flag is then being displayed. as for gaining and losing distance, it is your own choice as to whether it is important to risk lives and go all out through a yellow flag scenario, or to take it easy through there.
Not quite. Despite what it looks like, Charlie Whiting monitors drivers speeds on yellow laps and on the green laps before. They must have a noticeable and in his judgment appropriately, for the situation, slower lap time. Let’s hear it for another precisely worded, with no room for interpretation rule from the FIA.
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Old 07-09-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

As former Southern/Mid-western Series pit lane coordinator Barry Waddell used to say "There is no substitute for good judgement."

During practice and qualifying, I always put a hand up when coming up to a waving yellow, and drop down to 6/10ths at max. In practice there is no point taking a risk, and in qualifying you are going to lose a few tenths no matter what, which means your hot lap is as good as shot anyway.

During a race, waving yellows are a trickier proposition. You absolutely HAVE to take enough speed off so that you can avoid whatever is on the track in front of you, without losing control because you TTO'd at the last minute. But at the same time, if you take too much speed off, you can lose out big time to you competitors. IF I can see what is going on ahead, and can tell that the racing line is unobstructed, I will typically drop down to about 8/10ths, which I figure is a fair compromise between safety and competitiveness. If I can't see what is ahead, then I take a lot more speed off, until I've got a good read on the situation.

In some ways, this situation is sort of self-regulating. Early in my racing career, before I figured out what was going down, I used to lose 10 or 20 car lenghts each time I passed a yellow flag in a race. Eventually, I learned how to carry enough speed through the corner so that the time loss or gain viz a viz my competitors was relatively minor, while still feeling that I had taken enough speed off so that I wasn't putting any of the corner workers in danger. On the flip side, anyone who shows an inability to judge this properly is assuredly going to get a MAJOR dressing down from the instructors, and will almost assuredly get bounced out of the series in short order should they show a habitual inability to exercise good judgement around yellow flags.

In my 15 years at Skip, I really haven't seen this to be much of an issue. Most drivers, like Michael, realize that these are amateur races, and that putting corner workers at risk makes no sense given that nothing serious is at stake.
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Old 07-09-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
There doesn't appear to be a method of monitoring and enforcing, or even defining what a prudent speed would be through a waving yellow zone.
I think Michael answered this point. If a car goes through a yellow zone with speed, but is clearly in control, there is no violation. If a car goes through a yellow zone showing lack of control by making tire noise, rotation, lockup, or a move to pass, then a violation has occurred that should lead to a black flag.

My comment assumes the incident and safety crew are off the racing surface, or at least well off the racing line.

I think the bottom line is to drive at a speed you could not possibly make a mistake or add to the danger. Sometimes, under certain conditions, that will be a speed not much different than your normal laps, and other times, such as during practice or when an incident is in a target zone, measurably slower than your normal laps.
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Last edited by Gerardo; 07-09-2006 at 11:05 PM.
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  #15  
Old 07-12-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Keep it simple!
Standing yellow: No Passing, use caution.
Waving yellow: No Passing, use caution, be prepared to stop!
The speeds at which the happens will vary greatly based on experience levels.
BoBo's 6/10's may be much faster than a new guys 10/10s and be safer at the same time. Therefor there is no magic speed for yellows. It is about using good judgement and considering the risks involved. Skippy racing...or the last lap of the Indy 500... some would take more risks.
Skippy is a developement series and several guys learned a bit about how to handle yellows in the future. Anytime you leave the track smarter than when you arrived that is a good day! Learning is more important than finishing position at this level.
Thanks to Carson's Safety crew at RA for keeping the races going and not having to use the pace car ever other lap.
My 2 cents.
JP
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Old 07-12-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Pace
Thanks to Carson's Safety crew at RA for keeping the races going and not having to use the pace car ever other lap.
Maybe you missed the combined National fiasco?!
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Old 07-12-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Even Carson's guys could not over come that much poor judgement...JP
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Old 08-02-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Well, I need to shine my thought here as well... since it came up. Andy, you are the 3rd person that I know of that this happened to at RA. I did not learn about this until after the weekend. I now discuss this in my short drivers meeting. Or at least I tried to do it in every meeting at Mont Tremblant. The ole' hand in the air in the brake zone to show both the follower and corner work means a lot. A quick wave and back to business at what you feel your safest driving through a Yellow means. Its hard to even say making tire noise is too fast because of many different surfaces and their threshold for making noise. When I have been out there waving a yellow or helping a corner worker in the heat of battle, this is what happened. Once, in Canada corner, Paul Arnold(long timer in Craig Duerson's league) came down leading the very tight pack and he and others threw up a quick hand up,wave , back to 9 and 3. I knew they saw me and I knew they would be ok to go out there to this guy stuck. I am not going to say " hand up, foot down" but you get my point. I think you can drive 9/10's under a standing and of course a waving is 100% a judgement call based on the expression and energy of the flagger waving the yellow. You can read flaggers by either a "panic or pissed" look sometimes in the slow corners! Hairpin at Sebring for example. Like JP said, there is no dotted line for speed, its your dotted line and you're judgement. Sorry that Happened Andy, you did have that guy, I remember from seeing it on pit lane!
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Old 08-02-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Keith, you were great in the pit getting us ready, but this situation occurred in G4R2 at Tremblant. Early in the race, I'm coming down the straight into Turn 8 and see Tim George off-course and headed for the wall. I look over, and sure enough, there is a waving yellow. One driver was already up beside me, passing on the inside, and I have no problem with that pass beng completed. What I DO have a problem with is that by this time, I had already down-shifted to make the turn (figuring that I will just slot in behind whoever just passed me), and at least two and maybe three other drivers decide that they are just going to pack tighter than sardines nose-to-tail and take the corner away from me. So instead of being able to turn in, I have to hang around the outside of the corner and wait for the caravan to get by so I can fall in behind them. (Anybody feel like fessing up to this behavior?)

All of these drivers would likely have passed me on the way into Turn 10 anyway, and if not then, it would have happened eventually. My gripe is not that I got passed. It is that under a waving yellow I was trying to get into the corner in the proper position and do the right thing, and several others ignored the flag (there is absolutely no way anyone could have missed it -- and anyone who claims not to have seen the waving yellow should not be driving in competition).

Last edited by WatertownNewbie; 08-02-2006 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 08-02-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

This seems to resurface every 10 years here and it has been noted and discussed already. We will get busy to make it clear as to whats going on with the rules and police the rules. Normally this has always been a non issue because of gentlemen racers. Thanks again for this weekend.
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Old 08-02-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

A lot of cumulative wisdom. When yellows are out we can and should be safe together, whether driving or corner-working. If drivers offend once and aren't educable, they should be extruded immediately after a second offence.
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Old 08-02-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Thanks to all for the great participation in this thread.
What I wanted to do by bringing this up wasn't so much about maintaining my position as to bring up the topic of observing waving yellows in the interest of the safety crew's/ corner worker's own safety.
I really appreciate the response from the instructers and test drivers, they show real experience and should put the speed issue into perspective for us less experienced.
In the least, it should bring an awareness to anyone reading this thread and give them pause to reflect on what they have been doing. The hands up is a great tip; I have to admit I didn't think of doing that. Its especially important to do if upon having the incident come into view, and determining it's a dangerous situation, it will alert the following driver to exercise more caution than he might otherwise. Great feedback from everone.
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Old 08-02-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Andrew

Don't forget, it is also sometimes a good idea to put your hand in the air for no apparent reason if someone is close behind you! It confuses the shit out of them, makes them worried that they missed something, and causes them to slow down, thus buying you potentially valuable tenths!

This is especially effective on white flag laps, and just before pit-in. But, like 'push to pass', it generally only works once or twice!!

Happy hunting!
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Old 08-09-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

In my view,,,,predictably JP and PT and John Griest are on target and there is wisdom in their words.

On another point, Road America full course is famous for the RT 2000 in the gravel and time spent behind the safety car. While I love the full course (when noone goes off, and that is rare) it is not ideal for our racing. Believe it or not I'd rather, and spend my money accordingly, race the old short course. Let time spent behind the safety car and more time racing.
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Old 08-09-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Mike... whatever we run, you just need to get back out there. We've missed you!
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Old 08-09-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Quote:
On another point, Road America full course is famous for the RT 2000 in the gravel and time spent behind the safety car. While I love the full course (when noone goes off, and that is rare) it is not ideal for our racing. Believe it or not I'd rather, and spend my money accordingly, race the old short course. Let time spent behind the safety car and more time racing.
I agree. We used to race three times at RA in Midwest, twice on the short course and once on the long. Sure get a lot more laps on the 2.2 mile short course and still great passing going into 8 and Canada and wonderful drafting down the straight before Canada. Actually, I remember the drafting because we were running the "School Cars" that really drafted well.

Last edited by sydude; 08-09-2006 at 11:53 PM. Reason: fixed quoting
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Old 08-10-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

OK 999, just because you mention it i'll be there at Mid Ohio
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Old 08-10-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Have fun! I'll be at the beach!

I'll see you in Austria in a few weeks!
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Old 08-13-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Yeah, Dr. Mike, I agree 100% , seems we had less gravel stops on short course... Ah.... School cars, short course... yeah baby!
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Old 08-13-2006
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

RA is one of my favorite courses of all. BUT the old short course days were with different gravel traps. After the "improvements" the traps were brought up closer to the edge of the track so a "4 off" is a "struck in the beach".
The short course trade off is exchanging turn 14 for the haybale gravel trap and removing traps in turns 1, 3 & 5 but doubling the exposure with twice as many laps. All in all about a wash with the only real passing happening into turn 12. Either way RA is a great place to race with a community that enjoys having the racers around and a top safety crew at the track.

An if you think guys don't go off on the short course come drop in on a 3 day school...

Drafting is the key. Smart guys finish well with less panic and desparation in the driving. Hope the new cars take this into account.
JP
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  #31  
Old 08-13-2006
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Mopar92 Mopar92 is offline
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Pace
After the "improvements" the traps were brought up closer to the edge of the track so a "4 off" is a "struck in the beach".
Carson and the "guys" at RA are by far the ones to take notes from if you want a safe and fast recovery team. No two ways about it. Having said that, there would be a lot less yellows and full courses if they would simply "try" a corner (such as Turn 3, lots of space anyway) the asphalted Watkins Glen runoff. I think that when a guy does an "overcook" situation, he is rewarded with a loss of position and time, yet the other competitors don't pay for his sins by full course laps and or loss of time at the end of the day (group 5). I am convinced that the run off made of asphalt is the way to go. I wish they(RA) would be a little more open minded about their run off.
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Old 08-13-2006
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Michael Edwards Michael Edwards is offline
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Re: How to observe a waving yellow

Jim is obviously right about the old gravel traps. I too love Road America, but the drivers need to stay out of the gravel to have maximum track time for the dollar (and I know that I have personally, but not too often, cost all those driving in my group some racing time, most notably when I rear ended John Griest going into Canada corner on lap one in about 2002 or 2003 - sorry John). It's just that places like Sebring, Laguna, Mid Ohio, Putnam Park (a personal fav), just seem to give more racing time. Maybe that's exceptional, and i certainly don't think more of those courses than RA if we're driving for 1 and 1/2 hours.
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