Best Way to Crash

[stevo]

I am writing an article on how to reduce injuries as much as possible when involved in a crash. The audience is the street car driver, but of course many of the same racecar principles apply.

Please give your input..... some examples are:

1. Take hands off wheel to prevent fracturing your wrists.

2. Dont press hard on the brake at the moment of impact to prevent fracturing your leg.

3. Don't tense up, go with the crash. Relax as much as possible and let the seat belts do their job. Drunk people survive accidents that sober people do not because they dont tense.

4. If one has enough time to position the car, is it preferable to hit the wall rear ended or through the side... I would think the rear is best, but not sure on this....

Anyway, you get the idea. Thanks for the input!

S.

[MJAmok]

Originally Posted by stevo

1. Take hands off wheel to prevent fracturing your wrists.

...or thumb!

I would say a discussion on target fixation is critical. Also, when you mention braking, you should discuss rolling speed and control versus lock-up.

I think telling the average driver to re-position the car to minimize injury is expecting too much.

Finally, I would think a fair bit on avoiding the situation in the first place would be worthwhile. For example, look at the jackasses that fly around in the snow because they have 4-wheel drive. No consideration (or understanding) that they can't stop any better than anyone else.



A friend of mine used to say that cars are TOO safe these days... people feel invincible. He said you could reduce 90% of all accidents by placing a sharp spike in the center of the steering wheel instead of an airbag.... think about how carefully you would drive!!

[dalyduo]

I've put my thoughts and suggesttions in bold, in your text.

Originally Posted by stevo

I am writing an article on how to reduce injuries as much as possible when involved in a crash. The auidence is the street car driver, but of course many of the same racecar principleas apply.

Please give your input..... some examples are:

1. Take hands off wheel to prevent fracturing your wrists. A street driver is probably never going to have the presence of mind to do this unless it has been practiced. It is also less critical in a steet car.

2. Dont press hard on the brake at the moment of impact to prevent fracturing your leg. While this is good advice for an RT2000 or other open wheeled race cars, I'm not sure it is as critical in a street car where the crush zones will come into play first. You'd want to stay on the brakes to the moment of impact to slow the car as much as possible so again, without practice (and even with practice) it would be hard for a street driver to execute this.

3. Don't tense up, go with the crash. Much easier said than done, especially while you're crashing. Relax as much as possible and let the seat belts do their job. Drunk people survive accidents that sober people do not because they dont tense. Oh boy... while true, that's a low percentage analogy. ... "Yee Haa... I better drink a lot so I'll survive the crash!

4. If one has enough time to position the car, is it preferable to hit the wall rear ended or through the side... I would think the rear is best, but not sure on this.... If one has enough time to position the car, it is preferable to position it not to crash... We can probably assume that most street drivers are along for the ride once massive loss of control initiates.

The first thing you might recommend is a driving school or car control clinic that gives the average driver more options than locking up the brakes and sliding feet first into an immovable object. Even with ABS most people forget to look where they want to go and execute meaningful steering corrections. The most valuable experience is safely feeling a car at or over the limit in various circumstances and learning how to respond. If you've never had that experience most will never figure it out in an emergency. Your basic information is good if a crash in inevitable, but even experienced drivers have trouble executing the brake and steering wheel release unless they've practiced it or had to recover from not doing it.
Anyway, you get the idea. Thanks for the input!
S.

[dalyduo]

As an afterthought that summarizes what is fragmented in the comments.

With ABS, traction/skid control, belts and airbags being as comprehensive as they are these days we don't have as much of a healthy fear of crashing as we used to. There is no substitute for experience and practice with regard to safety maneuvers and that is where most are lacking. It's good to have some theoretical knowledge of high percentage choices in a crash situation but it is very hard to use that knowledge if you haven't experienced or practiced it.


(editor - thread brought back out of admin on 9/4/06)

[rf360m]

Originally Posted by stevo

2. Dont press hard on the brake at the moment of impact to prevent fracturing your leg.

Why would pressing on the brake at the moment of impact result in a fractured leg? Would pressing on any pedal, such as the dead pedal with your left foot, or putting your right foot over the accelerator make any difference?

Being tall, I don't really have an option of not putting my foot on any pedal.

[Duncan]

Originally Posted by rf360m

Why would pressing on the brake at the moment of impact result in a fractured leg? Would pressing on any pedal, such as the dead pedal with your left foot, or putting your right foot over the accelerator make any difference?

Being tall, I don't really have an option of not putting my foot on any pedal.

You don't want your leg stiff and tense when you absorb all that force from the crash, especially if it's a frontal impact.

[rf360m]

So is it the act of pressing against the pedal that is bad? The actual pedal isn't going to move backwards into your foot is it? Would it be best to just have your foot resting against the pedal then without any force applied?

[Duncan]

You don't have to worry about the brake pedal itself breaking and injuring you, at least not as your primary point of concern, but if your leg is tense pressing on the brake pedal (or any pedal) then you have abnother path for the engergy of the crash to enter your body. You want the force of a crash distributed across a lot of surface area, which is part of the reason belts are nice and wide, your foot is a pretty small surface, so the energy of the impact remains concentrated, and the foot and ankle won't do well if you're hard on the brake going into, say, the wall at Daytona.

[stevo]

In the old days the cars where made of hard metal. They idea was for the metal to take the impact instead of the driver.

The reality was a different one. The metal absorbed the impact and passed it to the driver. In present day, many race cars (i.e. F1) are made of carbon fiber in order for the car to destroy itself and take the impact. This is why the car looked horrible and the driver looks ok.

If your foot is pressing on any pedal, then you are part of the car and you will take the impact. Senna said that the wheels are part of his body's extremities. This is excellent for feeling the car, but very hurtfull when crashing. The first lesson you learn is to take your hands off the wheel when crashing. It should make sence that disconecting yourself from all parts of the car possile is best. Don't tense, stay relaxed, and let the seat belts do their job.

[Gerardo]

Interesting thread.

I agree prevention is the best, especially preventing overcorrection, but if a crash is going to happen, I'll add the following.

You can avoid some injuries by being in good shape, specifically, by having excellent flexibility. Your body may be snapped around like a rubber band, and if you are more flexible, your body can move further without many common muscle and tendon injuries that happen in athletics or in crashes that don't involve making hard contact with the vehicle interior. So then, stretch every morning and evening in all the ways you know how. You'll feel better anyway for doing it.

As for side vs rear vs front impact, I would hope to avoid side impacts, as the safety built into front and rear impacts tends to be better (crush zones, belt design, seat design, proximity to interior walls, etc).

Expecting 98% of drivers on the road to properly prepare their car's attitude, their body, and mind just before impact is not realistic without training.

[AZRCD]

Just slam it into the wall good and hard. Don't want to have to deal with the body shop much.

And on a serious note, most street drivers will get out of a car after a wreck saying, “what happened?” Or, “Where did he come from?” Or, “Did you see that truck?”
Most street drivers don’t look more than two, at best, car lengths in front. So we could assume that if they would have time to “prepare” themselves for the accident they would be looking further up the road and would have time to avoid it.

This is a long way of saying what others have said, don’t tell people how to crash; instead spend the time educated and training them on how not to crash.

[John Greist]

Originally Posted by Duncan

You don't have to worry about the brake pedal itself breaking and injuring you, at least not as your primary point of concern, but if your leg is tense pressing on the brake pedal (or any pedal) then you have abnother path for the engergy of the crash to enter your body. You want the force of a crash distributed across a lot of surface area, which is part of the reason belts are nice and wide, your foot is a pretty small surface, so the energy of the impact remains concentrated, and the foot and ankle won't do well if you're hard on the brake going into, say, the wall at Daytona.

Duncan's done plenty of crashing, but his theorizing from principles may be getting ahead of the realities of crashing. Remembering and doing what one believes is best in principle may be lost in those "Oh Shit" moments we all dread and try to deny will ever happen to us.

Daytona first-hand in 2005, three of us went essentially head-on into the wall within 10 feet of each other exiting the bus stop chicane, each doing over $20K damage. The others broke their legs and I finished second in the next race. How come? No one knows for sure.

They said, more or less, that they were trying to save the car after dropping the R rear in the hole at the third (of 4) apexes, which rotated the car right, toward the wall. I went for the brake immediately and had them locked up all the way to the wall - foot still hard on the brake when I hit - took my hands off the wheel and, my first and foremost thought, got my head forward against the HANS straps. It was the hardest hit I've ever had for sure. I later found a bruise on the top of my right thigh, but it didn't prevent me from running that evening.

I suspect I got more speed off than the others and was spared a fracture for that reason. One of them broke his leg against the steering column, not the brake pedal.

Agree entirely with Gerardo, that I'd rather go in tail- or head-first, even with the present Skippy car, as side protection seems less to me, unless you're counting on graduated compression of suspension members and not concerned about penetration from objects outside the car.

Cheery thoughts all, but important to realize injuries and even fatalities can occur and, at the same time, that the present cars are quite stout. All expectations are that a new car will be even safer, though if all the stars are misaligned, bad things will still be possible.

[Gerardo]

John,

I remember clearly the three Daytona examples at the unsmartly redesigned "new buststop" which we no longer use.

In your crash, yes you had the brakes, but your car also hit almost completely head on. Jonathan and Chris both went in at 45 degree angles. At head on, the car can squish a bit more than it can at 45 degrees. I still remember seeing all usual compression signs, bent warbird, bent transmission crossmember, bent seat mounts, and of course, a squished cowcatcher area. Everything bent, except you. With the other two, the angle sent their appendages into hard objects, and the frame took in some energy before the cowcatcher could have any significant effect. Ouch.

I clearly remembered this as I broke the right rear suspension in the Pro Formula Mazda at Sebring during a pre-season test day as I went to the brakes at Turn 17 from 145mph or so. The instant it broke, I wanted to crash as head on as I could. I found the deepest section of tire wall and steered right at it, all the while braking as much as I could with the remaining tires still scoffing at the asphalt. I think I hit at around 85-95 mph. Not a piece of me was sore, and it only cost about $4000. What a deal.

[John Greist]

Thanks for the elaboration on these crashes. I was too close to be fully objective - thought facetiously, that being older, I'd had more experience crashing so did it better.

I did have long brake lock-uptire marks and don't remember much, if any, tire marks for them, and I stopped for the third crash, though not for Jonathan's. So I still suspect I hit at a slower speed which I prefer. As you note, I did bend the seat bolts, the second time I've seen that.

[Duncan]

I wasn't referencing the crashes at the bus stop that weekend specifically, it was just the place Skippy races that stands out to me the most when I think of frontal impacts with walls, although the Uphill has some nasty potential too if there is a nudge from a passing car, especially in the wet.

Anway, it's worth noting that while I have extensive crashing experience, usually at some speed, the only two times I've required medical attention were when other drivers tagged me, so I must be doing something right

[rf360m]

Originally Posted by Gerardo

I still remember seeing all usual compression signs, bent warbird, bent transmission crossmember, bent seat mounts, and of course, a squished cowcatcher area.

What is a cowcatcher area?

Also, in the event of a crash, some people have said that they try to 'tighten' the straps on the hans device. Does this mean that they lean their head forward a bit to take up any slack in the teathers? If so I suppose that is good practice? But wouldn't your head just go backwards and forwards a couple of times, each time bouncing against the teathers?

[dalyduo]

A cowcatcher was an iron wedge at the front of old steam locomotives (see photo) and even some modern trains designed to push heavy objects, originally cows, out of their path to avoid being derailed.

On an R/T the "cowcatcher" area would be the rounded hoop frame tubing member that extends forward of the pedal box. (See second photo) It is the first frame member to hit something in a frontal crash and offers collision and crush zone protection to the foot well.

On tightening against the HANS straps... I suppose if you knew you were going in headfirst and had enough time to think about it you might try moving your head forward to remove the slack but my experience of hard hits is that the initial forces way overwhelm any physical resistance you might be attempting. Since the straps are designed to keep the motion of the helmet within safe limits I'd even venture an opposite scenario. It might be wiser to remain relaxed so your head can bobble around within that safe range of motion. Tensing at the moment of impact might cause a neck strain or pull that wouldn't happen otherwise. Both big hits I've experienced had plenty of side forces and head bobble but no neck strain of any kind and frankly the last thing I was thinking about was removing slack from my HANS straps.

Your best prevention is making sure that your HANS straps are adjusted to the recommended lengths before you get in the car so that they limit the range of motion properly.

Originally Posted by rf360m

What is a cowcatcher area?

Also, in the event of a crash, some people have said that they try to 'tighten' the straps on the hans device. Does this mean that they lean their head forward a bit to take up any slack in the teathers? If so I suppose that is good practice? But wouldn't your head just go backwards and forwards a couple of times, each time bouncing against the teathers?

[JonMiller]

For comparison and conversational purposes, here is a picture of the cowcatcher from my big hit in Daytona on that not-so-fun weekend when Chris, Dr. Greist and myself shared the same crash pattern. I happened to draw the short straw that weekend and came away with the worst of the injuries.

I don't remember much about the wreck, but I do recall trying to save the car and thinking I was going to make it. I only hit the brakes at the last second, when I knew that the wall was unavoidable. I also know (from what I was told by witnesses and by looking at the attatched picture) that I went into the wall at an angle and the rear of the car was "whipped" into the wall. I don't remember trying to get my hands off of the wheel, but then, I honestly don't remember much about that day. My hands and fingers were fine though. Besides the leg injury and the concussion, I had massive bruising on my right arm, chest and thigh. I also had an open wound on my upper right arm, small, but still there.

[cdh]

had to do it...



as far as letting go of the wheel, here is my first big hit (40 sec), Sept. 2001, rookie mistake, watch as I remember to take my hands off the wheel, unfortunately it was after the contact....doh. I still have a pain in my thumb where the wheel whacked it. .

[Duncan]

Hmmm, I think your new front end aero treatment will upset the aero balance a bit.

[Andrew]

It seems to me that there is no 'one size fits all' way to go into a wall. there are variables, such as is it a tire wall? Is it an unprotected jersey barrier ? Are you wearing a HANS device? How is the gravel trap (if there is one) configured? What's the entry to the corner look like? Is it possible to increase the the length of the run-off by inputting some steering angle? You may go in with a sideway slam against the wall, but you should also have a greatly reduced speed.
I started a thread the other day about what to do with brake failure and asked for feedback about what you experienced or would envision how to handle going in hot on corners of your choice.
This is proving interesting. I'm ordering a HANS!

[999]

Since Doug showed his embarrassing moment, I'll show mine.

Look for the link to Booty Crash video.... (cdh edited link, full thread here)

In that case (10/05... last race weekend of the year) I took my hands off the wheel.

In the first weekend of this year (2/06) apparantly I forgot this was a good idea (actually, given the circumstances, I had A LOT less time to react).... I wound up with pins in my hand.

I have concluded that taking your hands off the wheel is better.

[John Greist]

Seeing the photo of Jonathan Miller's crash damage (4 back in this thread) confirms Gerardo's observation that his angle of contact with the Daytona wall was about 45 degrees. Mine was virtually straight on, so Gerardo's observation about straight on the nose crashes permitting more car compression is interesting. Jonathan's recall that he was trying to save the car, nearly did, and braked only at the very last may mean he took off less speed than I was able to do, so the forces I felt, while the hardest in my experience, were probably lower and somewhat more evenly/diffusely transmitted to me. Still hard, as I bent the bolts in the seat, and did > 20K$ damage.

Pat's observations questioning the value of anticipatory HANS strap tightening is interesting. Twice while anticipating big frontal hits, I had plenty of milleseconds to consciously put my head forward, and had no head, neck or backache afterward. At Mt. Tremblant, I went in at an angle, so even with head forward still had lateral force applied and no twisting consequences.

My thinking is that waiting for the hit to move one's head forward means your brain will get a more sudden stop when the straps do tighten. I may be wrong and wonder what HANS folk say about the issue.

I remember Roberto Moreno saying he'd gotten his head forward in early days of HANS use and walked away with no concussion from a verey hard head on into concrete. I believe his experience that day - probably 7-8 years ago - sold several CART drivers on HANS.

[Alex Doman]

Ok. I've been doing some research on an equation that could tell me about how many g's my Mid-Ohio brake failure hit was. I managed to stumble across this (Blue box on the right "A lesson in Physics for concrete wall crashes)...

http://autoracingone.net/MarkC/2001/0221Safety.htm

The most important thing that I pulled out of this article right away, and I'm sure you did also if you read it, is that if you strike the wall at an angle, rather than head on, the impact can be up to 30% less. If I'm not mistaken, it would also be 30% less of an impact than going in directly sideways or directly backwards also. I'm guessing most of you guys already know that it's better to go in at an angle but I didn't. If anyone has a different take on this let me know!! I'm still trying to figure out what I should do next time I have a brake failure.

[L8Apex]

As some of you may know, the amount of Gs you experiece in a crash is dependent on the amount of time it takes to decelerate. It would be pretty hard to accurately calculate the G-forces you experienced, Alex, mostly because of the framerate of the video. You'd have to know (at least to the thousandth of a second) the amount of time that elapsed from your initial contact with the tires to the point at which you reached zero mph. That period of time time is most likely much shorter than even a single frame of your video (~.033 secs). Let's not mention that the camera probably takes a crap at the moment of impact, so a real technical analysis is going to be difficult. You could probably calculate the "minimum" G-forces experienced in your incident, but since you don't have high speed camera footage of the incident, you won't be able to do much better than that.

As for your comments about lower G-forces when contacting the tire barrier at an angle instead of head-on or backwards, this is a direct result of lengthening the period of time it takes for the car to come to a complete stop. More complicated phsyics come into play at that point, however, because high lateral G-loads during accidents can sometimes cause nasty results. Lastly, impacting a barrier backwards is usually ALWAYS the best choice (while hardly ever feasible), as the G-forces are much more evenly distributed over your entire body.

[Alex Doman]

Also, I have heard something else that could potentially save a life which is not cutting your seat in half horizontally or vertically. I have seen several guys do this and I'm not sure why. However, in a high speed rearward impact, that split in the seat could potentially open up allowing your spine to slip into the resulting gap while the rest of your back remains stationary. This could very easily result in a broken or fractured back. I heard this while interviewing Formula BMW teams and those guys know everything about safety. So long story short...DON'T SPLIT YOUR SEAT!!!

[L8Apex]

Just to elaborate a bit more on what I said in my previous post...

This Wikipedia article on accelerative gravitational forces is a good primer on the topic. A few noteworthy excerpts:

Everyday g-forces

- 10.4 g when falling down into a chair.
- 8.1 g when walking off a step.
- 3.5 g during a cough.
- 2.9 g during a sneeze.

Strongest g-forces survived by humans

Voluntarily: Colonel John Stapp in 1954 sustained 46.2 g in a rocket sled, while conducting research on the effects of human deceleration. See Martin Voshell (2004), 'High Acceleration and the Human Body'.

Involuntarily: Formula One race car driver David Purley survived an estimated 179.8 g in 1977 when he decelerated from 172 km·h-1 (107 mph) to 0 in a distance of 66 cm (26 inches) after his throttle got stuck wide open and he hit a wall.

Here's a more in-depth article on the subject.

John Stapp is the man when it comes to historical research of the effects of acceleration on the human body. It was clear, very early on, to Stapp and the members of his team, that a rearward facing seat was much safer for the guinea pig.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The first run on the rocket sled took place on 30 April 1947 with ballast. The sled ran off the tracks. The first human run took place the following December. Instrumentation on all of the early runs was in the developmental stage, and it was not until August 1948 that it was adequate to begin recording. By August 1948, 16 human runs had been made, all in the backward facing position. Forward facing runs were started in August 1949. Most of the earlier tests were run to compare the standard Air Force harnesses with a series of modified harnesses, to determine which type gave the best protection to the pilot.

By 8 June 1951, a total of 74 human runs had been made on the decelerator, 19 with the subjects in the backward position, and 55 in the forward position. Dr. Stapp, one of the most frequent volunteers on the runs, sustained a fracture of his right wrist during the runs on two separate occasions.

Dr. Stapp's research on the decelerator had profound implications for both civilian and military aviation. For instance, the backward-facing seat concept, which was known previously, was given great impetus by the officer's crash research program, which proved beyond a doubt that this position was the safest for aircraft passengers and required little harness support, and that a human can withstand much greater acceleration than in the forward position. As a result, all of the Air Force Military Air Transportation Service (MATS) were equipped with this type of seat. Commercial airlines were made aware of these findings. The British Royal Air Force also installed it on many of their military transports.

[OLDMAN]

There is no proof at all to back-up your theory that drunks don't get hurt in wrecks as often as sober persons do. It's an old wives' tale if ever there was one. The only way you can give your bones any support is to stiffen the muscles around them.

I once had a high school teacher tell me that snakes never die before sunset. I told her the one I got with the mower last week did!

OLDMAN

[cdh]

Seat inserts are sometimes cut to accommodate packing for commercial flights. I have never flown commercially to a race with my insert, mainly because I couldn't, too big. I suppose if I had no choice I would cut mine to fit a bag also, no other choice unless you have a really small insert.

I think that's the only reason they get sliced up.

Oldman, snake story a huge

.

[stevo]

Oldman: Using your exchange with your high school teacher 1947 doesn't convince me of anything. Use your logic:

We know that tensing up before an accident will worsen injuries. If you are wide awake, sober and untrained, you will tense. If you are drunk enough, you are in a different world and you don´t see things coming.

The famous "Go with the crash". How is this different? People who fall asleep at the wheel end up with less injuries than their conscient co driver.

[L8Apex]

Originally Posted by stevo

People who fall asleep at the wheel end up with less injuries than their conscient co driver.

Just as oldman said, where's the proof? That's all we need.

Furthermore, wrecks happen very quickly. Tensing up before impact is an involuntary reaction that is extremely difficult to control. Just ask this guy, who just woke up from a nap to a little surprise...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JRumOi2YYAk

[jeffrey Pietz]

The benefit of the rearward facing seats is indeed true for aviation. When I rode on C9 medical transports in the Air Force all the passenger seats faced backward. It was explained to me at the time that commercial airliners did not use this configuration because they thought the public would not like it.

The G sled physics make sense but I worry about two things. First, with all those hard metal objects in the engine compartment I do not relish the idea of them joining me in the cockpit. Secondly, trying to spin to go in ass first may open up other problems such as not getting a strait hit or even rolling over.

I suspect that the belts in the car are best used going in strait as opposed to at an angle if one is considering head on vs crash at an angle. Also, I wonder if it is less likely to get a tire in the head if you go in strait as opposed to an angle.

This thread has probably added three seconds to my times at RA but I think it very worthwhile.

[OLDMAN]

My only hope is that I die like my grandfather did, in his sleep,

not like his passengers did, screeming and yelling.

OLDMAN

[L8Apex]

Here are my final thoughts on the topic of tensing up during a wreck. The accelerative forces at work during a high speed collision are so great that our muscles, tense OR relaxed, really don't have any appreciable effect on the situation. Yes, we'd all like to be able to control what happens during the few milliseconds that metal is crumpling all around us, but the fact of the matter is that we are completely helpless. Whatever tension is present in our muscles at the point of impact is most likely completely negated once those same muscles are subjected to the extreme g-loads of impact.

I also don't buy into the fact that a drunk driver would go completely limp during an accident. I'm convinced that a drunk would tense up just as much as a sober driver in an accident, unless the drunk was passed out. As for a sleeping driver, our muscles do not go limp in all stages of sleep. During the first stage of sleep, our muscles (while weaker than normal) are still quite tense. Anyways, I do believe I've put too much thought into this topic. I must stop now. Bye bye.

[LimeRockRacer]

CDH...I found a nice large rolling duffel from LL Bean that fits my seat and all my clothes and other equipment without having to split it in half..Great for commercial travel. Just measure your seat across and get one large enough.

Now you have no excuse for flying commercially to some nice tracks you have avoided for fear of having to split your seat. By the way, if you get one big enough you can fit your Mini in there as well!

[dalyduo]

A last minute desperation run to K-mart in Manhattan two years ago yielded a $35 rolling duffel that holds my un-cut seat and all my racing gear plus some clothing. Four zipper pockets on the sides and one on top.

The quality of construction, fabric and zippers is much better than the price would suggest. Thought they'd mismarked the bag but that was the price.

I'll have to check the LL Bean site and look for their bag. Like that you can get all your cloths in too. Can't do that with mine.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by LimeRockRacer

Now you have no excuse for flying commercially to some nice tracks you have avoided for fear of having to split your seat. By the way, if you get one big enough you can fit your Mini in there as well!

actually, I have never had to worry about getting my seat on flights to those tracks, they were not commercial flights...

This year I drove longer distances than prior years because of the added video gear I needed, I don't mind road trips and it's nice not having to ship all that crap (and have the added worry). AND, I was able to do some semi hot laps at some fantastic tracks in the Mini, fun stuff.

.

[arig]

i know that skip barber lets some guys keep their seats in the trailer that goes to each race. that is a nice thing to be able to use. maybe skippy could charge a fee to keep and transport your seat.

[cdh]

Originally Posted by arig

i know that skip barber lets some guys keep their seats in the trailer that goes to each race. that is a nice thing to be able to use. maybe skippy could charge a fee to keep and transport your seat.

Did that a few years ago, worked great.

[ReneSkIpMeCh]

how bout you dont crash save us alot of work...and makes your guys weekend even funner beacuse it goes smoothly